725. - Daniel Nigro

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Our schedule is all fucked up, but we're back, Jason. It's Monday. And a lot of stuff happened since we last spoke. And first and foremost, I want to congratulate Sleepy Joe on pardoning Hunter. A friend of the show, Hunter Biden, has been pardoned. And I think this is a reason to celebrate. I don't know if you agree. Yeah, America's Army Hammer is free. Happy for Hunter. You know, some of the crimes are more excusable than others. you know it's just one of those things where you got to be like all right this was probably going to happen what do you expect what would you you know somebody who knew like like of course you're going to pardon your son like what the fuck like what do you why would people be upset about like who cares like the president is literally above the law that's the whole point of being president yeah but you you never want to see it on display especially after sj said i will not pardon my son and then he's like psych I'm about to pardon my son. But every president or every powerful person in any position is going to pardon the son. That's just kind of what goes down. I think back in the day, we preferred it to all happen without anyone knowing. But now in the information age, every time the CNN headline is posted about, you know, rumors are spreading that.

that hunter biden will be blah blah blah and then people just reply with the video of him getting his dick sucked by a crackhead while he's holding a gun and then you know so nothing illegal there nothing illegal there maybe you just don't like that if everyone's into it nothing illegal there consenting adults performing sex acts the weapon i'm sure is registered and he has a concealed carry permit i don't see a problem with that personally i know how some people could morally maybe but i don't i don't have that problem I think obviously the victimless crimes, the drug use and stuff like that, whatever. If he was really doing bad things, then that sucks. But that is really also part of about being the child of a powerful person regardless of wherever you are in the history of planet Earth. That's what happens. Trump is a normal cat. Trump pardoned Kodak Black. That's true. And everyone loved it. Hunter Biden is just the white Kodak Black. Another congratulations goes out to friend of the show and Harvard Westlake bully, Apple Martin. She came out at the debutante ball in Paris wearing a very ugly teal Valentino, I believe. She looked great, except for the dress, obviously. Teal Valentino, my drag name. But I want to talk about, I just want to talk about the... little bro for a second because i saw two pictures of little bro from this kind of family weekend in paris to celebrate apples coming out okay and just really just to clarify really quick for our listeners who aren't up on the apple martins or are not up on the paltrow martin family These are the children of Chris Martin from Coldplay and Gwyneth Paltrow. Sweetheart, our fans know exactly who that is. For some of our straight listeners that know me from Orange County or something, I don't know. That's a good point, guys, that do graffiti. For all my Zamboni operating listeners and friends out there who might not be abreast. But there was like a carousel post Gwyneth posted of kind of the weekend, and her son was...

Getting two separate fits off in a way that I was I usually leave that up to kind of British kids. Whose debutante ball is it? Exactly. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. He was wearing this this great kind of. jacket that has like the the sort of old school like metal i don't know what they're called but it's like from like an old like military or old like firefighter type jacket like a like a firefighter fisherman's waxy coat the clasps with some nice i think the brand was fey with some nice you know baggy regular jeans he had the puma the speed cats on age appropriate then so hot right now the puma speed cat we saw him in his his black tie look and he's doing kind of the brandon flowers He's doing the Sam Hine bow tie. Yeah, the only person I've ever seen pull it off, Sam Hine and Brandon Flowers. Sam Hines, definitely Bodie. Brandon Flowers could be Dior, I don't know. Ironically, the only two people that can pull that off, both straight. That is interesting to think about. So I just wanted to... Yeah, you could never, Bowen Yang. Bowen can't do anything. You don't have the cheekbones for it. Nobody had the cheekbones for that David LaChapelle cover of New York Magazine. Good God. Good God. Period. Jason, just so you know. Body was tea, though. I can't hate it. As a Los Angeles, lifelong Los Angeles resident, the reasons to love New York issue of New York Magazine is kind of a classic. It's usually quite good. And it may even get you choked up, depending on how much you like New York. The 9-11 issue, what a monster. You probably have that one in your collection. So this kind of David LaChapelle photo of several members of the SNL cast throughout the years just... didn't hit the same as like an alex katz drawing or something really nice do you think it did not hit because of the photographer or because of the subject matter i mean those those kind of shoots are very hard because i imagine

all those people were not in the same room at the same time. So that has to be stitched together. You know what I mean? Like all that. It just, yeah. Half the cast refuses to be in the same room as Alec Baldwin. I'm sure. I think Steve Martin might be the bigger asshole, but that's, that's neither here nor that's the low key. You know what I mean? Behind the scenes. Martin might not have any bodies though. You know what I mean? That's true. Alec does have, yeah, Alex was definitely shot on his own. Probably lets the, uh, Martin probably lets the N-word fly a little bit less than the homie Alec Baldwin. Alec Baldwin definitely had to go to a studio alone and push. He had a tether, and he pushed the button on the camera himself, and it took the photo, and then David LaChapelle's 15th assistant used a lasso tool to kind of cut him out, and then we just pasted him right in, and it was no problem at all. A lasso, damn it. At this point, Alec Baldwin was one of the busiest photographers in New York City because he has to do all of his own shoots. He's kind of become pretty good at it now. He's got the GR2 and the GR3. Watch out, Morgan. He's sneaking up on you. He just got the contacts flash, and he's really kind of figuring that out. I think that Alec Baldwin as a self-photographer, it's like hot chicks during COVID. We'll just send you the clothes and do your thing and just send the photos back, and we'll just run those. Hot chicks and us. Shout out to Timbaland. We love you guys. And us. So it's been a big few days. It's been a big few days. Just a lot to go over. And then we're heading to Miami tomorrow, which I know that you're looking forward to, even though you have good weather right now. In New York, it's beautiful, sunny, but it's ice cold, bone chilling. So packing my leopard print Noah shorts for the Wawa. is oh wow is feeling is feeling sexy okay i haven't i haven't looked at the temp i'm i'm hoping that i'm that i'm able to make it out there the the flight that i'm on is is oversold and i was a late addition so it's tbd on if i'm gonna get me a little seat on that plane but we'll see what happens i think you i think you have a confirmed seat what do you mean not yet i'll find out tomorrow at the airport i think or maybe at some point but did you call yeah

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, I talked to him this morning. Okay, because this is only a problem because the event we're doing at Silencio at the Miami Beach Edition, I dealt with the deal, but I obviously can't do anything when the CDJs are fired up. So if you don't, I don't know what's going to happen. You're going to have to figure it out. Okay, so you can just send me your playlist, and I'll kind of take it from there. Okay, we can prepare for that. Yeah, we got this. We got this. Yeah, I'm excited to go to Miami. It's only going to be for about a day and a half. Yeah. So it's a real kind of in and out because we have to come back for our show in L.A. at the El Rey Theater. Very excited for that. And also the fifth, the day that we get back, Carolyn, my wife, is having a photo show at Friend of the Show, Armand's kiosk, Are We On Air, across from the Chateau. So, yeah, that's Thursday. You know, same time-ish, you know, 6 to 8, 6 to 9 kind of vibe come through. Say hi. Look at a book. And then El Rey, friend of the show, Robbie Hoffman, is opening for us. Get your tickets, man. New York was really good. If you don't know, if you're on the fence, just contact somebody who went to the New York show. They'll say, wow, what an over-delivery. It was amazing. Don't contact anyone on Reddit about Emily Sundberg. Just ask them about the New York show and if they liked it. Ticket price was worth, you know, it was worth. I'm getting, dude, I'm getting. They'll say, wow, what a value. What a value. I'm getting Katie Waxhatchee's in Australia right now. And I'm just getting, I'm getting, I'm getting FOMA. We need to go back to Australia. I'm desperate to go back to the motherland. There's a good chance we might go out in February. Yeah. Or like a food and wine fest in Melbourne. Oh, they eat there? Oh, shit, okay. I didn't know they ate. The food in Melbourne is some of my favorite food in the world. Do they make wine in Australia? They just drink it. Is that like a big? They just drink it. Okay, sure. They do be drinking. They do be drinking out there. Yeah, well, I noticed down in Australia, your fave, who's getting harder and harder to defend, Drake just announced his Australian tour. He really is.

Nothing says I'm hiding out like doing a tour in Australia. With the Cocomelon artwork, and he's still holding on to the Anita Max handle for this tour. Can you tell me what that is? I don't know what that is. I think it's a play on words for the phrase, I need a Max win in the gambling sense of the word. I think it's like a little entendre like that. But instead of I-N-E-E-D. Got it. He says A-N-I-T-A like a Latinx name. Smart. Anita. Okay. I guess any name. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, he's just a standard progression where a murderous billionaire gangster rapper. takes on the presence of a cartoon child named Anita. Look, we know for a fact Drake can never murder anybody. Don't do that. A tale as old as time. Mobb Deep did it back then. Who else? Onyx did this all the time where they would always create themselves to be like a three-year-old female cartoon child named Anita. I just hate cartoons so much. Just normal business. I just hate cartoons so much. Every single thing about cartoons I fucking hate. But... Drake, yeah, Drake needs to go somewhere. And he hasn't been, I guess I noticed this on that flyer that you're talking about. He hasn't been to Australia in eight years. So no time like the president. When America isn't fucking with you, you know where you can go. Well, the problem is he's taken a page out of Katy Perry's book by going down to Australia. The only place where she can sell some tickets is at like a rugby match finals in somewhere deep in Australia. drake you don't need the money just lay low sort out your plan get a strategy have somebody make a deck and figure out what you're going to do relevance don't go and play hotline bling to a bunch of australians who are not really feeling you right now they are feeling him because he's making the trip and i think that yeah i think at what cost but you know i feel like australia there it used to be a place where it was like oh they're

They're just going to be happy to take whatever because they're so far away and removed from the rest of the world. So you can just be a, you know, you can be a little podcast, like how long gone and go do a huge show down there. And I think now because of the internet, everyone, Australia is just as hip and with it and in the know is everything. So I don't think it's like, get Australia's dick out of your mouth, bro. Relax. Damn. I'm not, it's, I'm not. Damn. choking on the hog of australia i'm more so just big upping high-speed wireless internet and uh beautiful social media fabric yeah that's okay that's something i can support that's how that's what i can support we have a guest today We have a guest today. Dan Nigro is a producer and songwriter. You know his work probably from Sky Ferreira, Olivia Rodrigo, most recently Chapel Roan. He's worked with everybody. Kylie Minogue, Joe Jonas, Polachek. The list goes on. He's really the producer du jour. He's got all these Grammy noms. We have some shared history that I want to discuss with him and see if he's interested in talking about kind of mid-aughts emo for 20. Um, but we can get into all these big hits and stuff too. He won a Grammy too. I'm sure he's won. I'm sure he's won. And we don't need to do 20 on mid Aussie, man, but we'll, we'll keep it. I'll give you seven. This episode of how long gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's a, it's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace.

Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Okay. Whenever I use my laptop for making music, which is actually never, I have like a little interface that I would plug my headphones into. I just feel like with laptops nowadays, you just don't know. Is everything wireless? I have no fucking clue. I understand. So you're saying you have a little box that you plug all your shit into off to the side. You don't plug it direct. You're not going direct. Okay. So you're like a guy who's like, I've been driven in a Rolls Royce for the last 10 years, and they hand me the keys of a Honda Civic, and you're like, does this have a steering wheel? It's a Maybach. It's a Maybach, but sure. It's a Maybach? Okay. What is the Maybach equivalent of your... digital audio interface. What brand are we using? It's just a Sony, actually. You guys have the same... Not your headphones, not your cans, and we have the same ones, of course, but I mean, your interface when you're in the studio, when you have your $20,000 Mac tower. My $10,000 Mac tower that doesn't work, yes. Are you still on OS 9 for the crack plugins? What are we doing? I just left about six months ago. Yeah, that's a hard transition. That's a hard transition for any man. I know that's been difficult. But now you're able to afford all the licenses for the plugins probably, right? Yeah, it was a great day to be able to like, I can buy these plugins now? Wow. Here's my credit card. So do you steal anything anymore, Dan, just to feel something?

No. I don't mean plug-ins. I mean just maybe simple shoplifting, you know what I mean? Maybe just a pack of gum here and there, you know what I mean? A Rice Krispie treat at Starbucks. You got a receipt for that coffee? Yeah, you got a receipt. A couple of years ago, I went to a – I took my wife. I had a – at the time, my daughter is two and a half now. And my daughter was about like three or four months old. My wife and I and her mother took my daughter to the Huntington Gardens, you know. I went there last weekend with my mom. And we went in and we went to go buy the tickets. And I forget that my wife was so embarrassed about me. She was like. We got up there, and I think I tried to get like a – I was like, well, I'm jokingly like ask for like a senior discount or something, you know, like for myself. Sure, sure. Classic dad joke. You just had a baby. You're trying some stuff out. And then she was like, wait, are you also a senior? And I was like, yeah. And she's like, okay. I was like, two senior discounts and a regular ticket. And she was like confusing, like, okay. And then she was like, wait, are you Dan Nigro? And I was like. Yeah? She's like, the producer? And I was like... Yeah, she's like, hi. She's like, I'm a big fan. My wife is like, you can't joke around about these things anymore. Like, you just can't do this. So you got straight up busted by the fucking Huntington Gardens ticket lady. That's really, I wouldn't have expected, I mean, she must have been an aspiring musician or something. Yeah, she was young. She was probably in her early 20s. But I was like, right, you can't, Dan, you can't even joke around about that stuff. You can't joke around about that stuff. I mean, I'm glad. We don't know if you pay full price. Hopefully she charged you. Once she found that out. We don't know. You don't know. I don't know. I guess it would be weird if you were like a legit senior citizen who was like besties with Olivia Rodrigo. Like, yo, I'm 78, baby. Me and Olivia. We just bonded. I don't know what it is. So you live in L.A. for a while, right?

14 years. Oh, okay. So quite a while. I didn't realize it had been that long. It'll be 14 years next month. It'll be 14 years in general. Where did you land when you first got to LA? How bad was it? Land in terms of what? Not Burbank or LAX. I mean, what fucking apartment in Studio City? I should say I was really lucky because I basically – I had a friend who was living with his girlfriend at the time who was living – they were living with their – Okay. Her mom in the Hollywood Hills. And I couch surfed for the first two months I lived in LA. I just slept on the couch. Okay. And then finally my friend Ariel, he had this back house. We know Ariel. You know Ariel. Okay. So Ariel, he used to live in this house in Echo Park. The crazy thing is the house is still in like... the family of like, it's not, Ariel doesn't live there anymore, but there's still like, there's still people that would work at the same studio that was Ariel. Oh, they took it over. They took it over. So it's still like in existence. Um, and it's still a place that people work. But, um, but basically there was a back house in this house and then I lived there and that was like my first like spot where I lived for a few months was in Echo Park. And then, and then oddly enough, I live in, I mean, I live in Pasadena now, but. The house that I'm in now that's a studio is in Highland Park, and I've been in Highland Park since January of 2011. Oh, early settler. That is early. Yeah. Do you have a special pass to cut the line at Kumquat or anything? I do, I do, yeah. That's nice. They give me an extra pastry at Fondry. That's really good. You've made it. You've arrived. In terms of your life, I guess your life in biblical terms, there's the BC. Highland Park and then the AD Pasadena before Olivia Rodrigo Guts comes out. We're in Highland Park. We're making it work. Getting some money. Then that comes out. Chapel Rhone. The checks are coming in. Your wife's like, Pasadena's really clean. It's really safe. I'm sick of getting carjacked. I should say this. This has become my man. This house that I work out of now is still like...

It's the house I bought in 2013 and I just love it. It's my place. And so it's now become like the whole house is the studio. That's cool. My wife moved in with me in like 2018, I think it was. And quickly, as soon as she moved in, it was kind of like, oh, this isn't going to work. Like it's a, it's a 950 square foot house. And the garage was the studio or is the studio still. But, you know, it was clearly like you can't have two adults living in this house and then having to be a full-time recording studio. So we would have moved out earlier. We just didn't find a place. You know, the housing market in L.A. is crazy. And we just spent two years trying to find a house. Two years? Tell me about it, girl. Yeah, two years. I mean, we were being picky and we were like. looking around a lot and then we like get into escrow in a house and then we like do the you know the due diligence the whole thing thing and then be like oh maybe this isn't it then the chinese come in and cash offer last minute it happens every time doesn't it what were your parameters for the for the for the new home that you and your wife shared together because my wife and i have we have some you know if it does happen it's got to have this this and this kind of thing oh my god pool tennis court heated floors none of mine are shared So that's the problem in my life. It has to be fully terrazzo. That's fine. No shame here. Do you have a pool? Do you have a pool, Dan? We are building a pool right now. Oh, shit. He said break ground is what he said. Yeah, we're breaking ground. Okay, so the pool is part of the parameters. Well, here's the crazy. This is the craziest part of it is that basically we bought the house in 2020. In October of 2020, we bought the house during the pandemic. We didn't actually move into it until April because it was the pandemic and we were trying to figure out a few things. And then I actually got really busy making sour. And we were kind of like working like every day. And I didn't really have time to like move. We didn't have time to move. I bet your wife loved that.

She loved it. It was her favorite time in life. Babe, I'm locked in. I'm fucking locked in. What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? It was her favorite time of life. Yeah, that was her favorite time in life. You ask her about her favorite time in life. It was December through April of 2020. It was the time when we bought my dream home and couldn't move into it for four years. So that was the coolest part of my life. Here's the great part of the story of our house in Pasadena is that we bought it. As a fixer-upper, neither my wife nor I really understood what went into actually renovating a house. So when we bought the house in 2020, we went in and we always knew we were going to change it. And then basically my wife walked in. My wife is, by the way, I say this because she's incredible. And she actually has a crazy eye for design and for decoration. She's a jewelry designer by trade. She doesn't know how to do drywall and roofing, though. No, she does. Here's the thing. She does know how to drywall. She's an audio didact, so it's just crazy. She can watch a video on YouTube, and the next day she knows how to do that thing. It's crazy. Does she know how to use Ableton? I tried to teach her how to use Melodyne. That's the one thing I tried to do. I have a video of her learning. She came over one day years ago and started teaching her how to use Melodyne. For those who don't know, it's what you use to edit vocals, to tune vocals. To make good singers sound great. And then she just was like, this is easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Real easy. This is my life's work. Just to give you an example. But anyway, the story goes is that she... The reason why I bought this house, talking about parameters, was that the garage and the basement had really high ceilings. And I was planning on building a studio, like doing a full studio renovation inside the house while we did the renovation of the house. About a month into buying the house, my wife took a sledgehammer, no joke, and she went into the kitchen of this house that we've just bought and literally demoed the entire kitchen. Just went and like...

She bashed out all of the cabinets. You know this was her blowing off steam for you not moving. I mean, I know it serves a purpose, but it feels pointed, I'll say. But the funny part is that basically she did this with the intention that we were about to renovate the house, and she didn't like the way the cabinets looked, so she just got rid of them. And then we started to make the plans for the house and realized we needed permits and all those things. So we basically lived in the house. without a kitchen for a year and a half before we moved. And not only without a kitchen, but with a destroyed kitchen. You came downstairs every morning to make your cup of coffee. We had a functioning sink and dishwasher, but everything else was kind of taken apart. We lived in the house for a year and a half before we finally moved out to renovate it. Jesus Christ. We actually just moved back into the house. three months ago okay so are you happy with the final result yes yes it's great but this is a this is a four years in the making jesus and and so you you wanted a pool didn't have a pool you're like fuck it we can dig a hole but then the funny then the other part of the story is that basically driver's license came out about eight weeks after we bought the house You're like, God damn it, I could have changed some of my Zillow settings if I would have known. I could have been a little higher on the hill is what we're thinking. Yeah, what the fuck? Maybe we'd be in San Marino right now instead of in the flats. Got it. Those San Marino houses, I keep on looking on Redfin and those houses are so expensive. It's crazy. It's worth it, man. Yeah, it's worth it if you live in San Marino. Well, I mean, you and I are, I'm assuming we're in different tax brackets, but I like to drive through San Marino and, you know. Take an edible on my way to get my Chinese food in the SGV and go through San Marino. It's too far. It's too far. It's so far. It's not that way. Sorry, where do you live? Well, I live in New York, but also West Hollywood. So I think of LA, that's the center, even though for most people it is not, which I recognize. But San Marino is probably 45 minutes away, minimum. That's just so, it's crazy. Chris has got to be within a certain area distance to the Abbey and kind of similar establishments.

Otherwise, it's like, why am I even in California? I don't feel super comfortable in these remote areas that you guys are talking about. There's fires and stuff. I don't understand. I'm glad it worked out. Isn't Rodrigo a Pasadenaite as well? Funny. No, she's from Temecula. To Mexico. Put your T's up. For some reason, at the time that we started working together, she was living in Pasadena. But she's not from Pasadena. And then soon after we were working together, she moved from Pasadena. Nothing screams pop star like Pasadena. You know what I mean? Let's get you a nice suburban area where the handlers can place you in Los Angeles. It'll be Pasadena. It doesn't matter. At least it's not Culver City. Yeah, Culver City would be much worse. Culver City would be much worse. So how often are you at the Erewhon in Pasadena, bro? All the time. All the time. All the time. You're holding it down. I got to get my Asian chicken salad. Oh, wow. Asian chicken salad. Okay. So that's like a, I think of that as like a Jones on third. You have me at Asian chick. That seems like a, that seems like a Jones on third thing to me. I didn't know there was an air one version. Is that, or no Chinese chicken salad is the, is the Jones on third version. Oh my God. It's so good with the, with the sesame seeds and yeah. What are those like the sesame seed sticks? What are those called? Like sesame seed sticks? I think they're just called sesame sticks. Sesame. Those are so good. That's your crouton substitute, Dan. Those are very high-calorie. You want to avoid those little sesame snaps, okay? Are they high-calorie? Yeah. You've got to watch out. Sorry for my friend. I went to a new New York hotspot called The Corner Store on Saturday night. The Caesar salad had everything bagel. croutons which i was into but then they also included these kind of mozzarella stick balls with cream cheese and i was like that is too far that is just too much for me so it was like a little like a mini arancini ball but it was just fried it was more of a cube it was more of a cube shape it was more of a cube shape if i'm keeping it 100 with you guys but thank you thank you and i i tried it with the full bite to get the

to try to understand if I was getting an everything bagel. And it did achieve that goal, which I guess was the point. I just wasn't into that in my salad. Did the cream cheese sort of explode in your mouth a little bit, or did it maintain the thickness? It exploded a little bit in my mouth, kind of like the veggie burger at Shake Shack with the cheese. You know what I mean? It's too much. There's a veggie burger with cheese inside the... Veggie burger? At Shake Shack, the veggie burger is a portobello cap that is fried, but there's cheese in it, so it burns your mouth as soon as you take a bite. It's not super practical. It's not super practical. Minnesota style. Oh, that's a Minnesota thing. Like the Juicy Lucy burger where they put the cheese inside. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dan, just a question to move us from Pasadena into music. What is the best BPM of all time? There's not a best BPM of all time. I feel like there's so many. Answer the question, Dan. No, I'm not. No, I am answering the question because there's multiple good BPMs. No, there are. All right, top five BPMs, dead or alive. 85, 115, 120, 128, 144. Okay. Sorry for a layman like myself. Some of those seem. eerily close together no i don't know chris 118 and 120 are worlds apart honey okay i'm sorry no i didn't say 118 i said 115 did i said did i say one oh sorry one you said [redacted card] well i mean you also have to put about 100 in there 100 is really important give me a give me an example of a song at 100 that i know um oh my god I can't actually think of, like, right now. I'll go Madonna, La Isla Bonita. Like, in between, like, there's, like, between 115 and 120, there's so much, like, like, good luck, babe, is 117. The chorus is 116. But, like, that sweet spot, like, it's about 115 BPM is, like.

anywhere in that spot is like a really like the best like mid tempo songs are kind of in that spot but you get above 120 you start to go into like dance world i want to stay away from that so i'll keep it below 120 got it you don't want nothing you want to stay away from it but like it's it's amazing how much it changes within that in that little space between 115 and 120 where like it shifts from dance to mid tempo And then like the 140 BPM is really important because that's kind of like you can be at like double time or half time and it still feels really good, you know? So you have like Kate Bush, Hounds of Love, I believe that's 144. But like driver's license is 140. So like around that section where you can do half time but also double time is like a really, really important BPM. Yeah, 140 to 70 is sort of the, that's the gateway to go into a halftime or double time. If you're doing a DJ set, you can be playing a fast 140 song. Right. Oh, I see. Okay, okay, I understand. A hip-hop song at 70, that was usually my gateway when it was time to bring it down from dance music into rap music. Right. Or, you know, a Rihanna ballad or something. But yeah, that 70 BPM is a real sweet spot. I'm learning so much, guys. This is really good. Those are really, really, really important BPMs. I didn't know I was getting a master class, but here we are. Well, actually, I brought that up because I was watching a video of you talking about how on the Chaperone song, you brought the BPM down from 117 to 116 for the chorus and then back up to 117. For the verse. I've never had anybody seen more. I've never had more discourse. I feel like so many people are so angry at me about it. And it's so interesting to see the way it would make people feel. Or people would get so upset. I saw so many comments about people so upset that choruses need to speed up, which I thought was so interesting. Because it's like, well, why does the chorus need to speed up?

Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, it... How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston.

South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. This episode is brought to you by Prime. What if you had one more chance with the one that got away? Sam, you came home. based on the best-selling novel from Carly Fortune. Every year after follows childhood friends Sam and Percy as they reunite in the dreamy, nostalgic lakeside town of Berries Bay. Love can be hard to find. So if you're lucky enough to find that person, never let go. A second chance at first love. Every year after, streaming June 10th, only on Prime. Because chorus is the only part of the song that people care about now is a problem. Yeah, you should know that. Yeah, you should know that. I don't know. I guess that I've never thought about a chorus speeding up or slowing down in my entire life. I've only recognized it as good or bad. Or I like it or I don't like it. I've never considered if it's faster or slower. Well, it's not a thing that happens all the time. Usually songs maintain the same tempo the whole way. I think a lot of people are probably upset because... their brain is not able to understand or they're afraid that their brain is not able to understand the, what you're talking about because it's not a noticeable difference in speed, but it's like an overall essence and a vibe and like the, you know, things are changed just a little bit and that alters people's brains. And when that's not like an objective thing or like a tangible thing, people lash out and say, you're an idiot. Right. But that's also the whole point of me. Like to me, music is it's all about feel right so we shouldn't be disgusted like to me it's like it's not important like whether you can hear it you're speaking my language bro all these people are fucking dorks do you like it or not do you like the song or do you not like here's an idea what if you listen to it exactly the number the numbers say you really like it so i don't really give a fuck about all this debate i like there was a lot of people a lot of people that were like were like like i knew i didn't like this for a reason

They're like, that one VPM, I knew it. I thought something was wrong with it. I would say the amount of people who are able to literally, who can tell the difference between that tempo shift, it's 0, 0, 0, 0.00% of the population. Even I. I can't tell the difference. I can't tell the difference. I can't tell the difference. But all I know is that when I was working on the song, I was at 117, and I was like, oh, the chorus feels rushed. Oh, I see. The verse felt amazing, but the chorus felt rushed. And I was like, well, I don't know if I slow it down. And that was the whole point, was to be like, well, I can't even hear the difference, but now the chorus doesn't feel rushed anymore. It served the purpose. It served the purpose. It did what it was supposed to do. Which is really smart, and it seems like it might be a little annoying in the arrangement process. maybe it's cool but what i like what i liked about that was like everyone is trying to make you know we're all making music on our laptops so it's inherently not natural and you sort of have to add in the human element and the swing and right we're shifting that snare drum you know 1 000 milliseconds early and you know making it so so your brain you have to get to that point where your brain doesn't think like oh this is like a sample pack like boom you know drum loop But the idea of shifting the entire tempo of the song of sections of the song is something that I never considered. And it seems like a cool idea. And until you have to DJ that song, then it's annoying as fuck. Well, I think it's it's funny because it's like even something I remember. I remember when I moved out to L.A. and I started getting into production more. And it's something that would even be in my brain when I was working on a song would be like, oh, like this doesn't feel good. And be like, oh, well, I can't switch it. Like it's something like. in that's like like somehow embed ingrained in us as music makers like like when you're working in pro tools or ableton or something like oh like well we can't switch the tempo and like why well why why why are we even saying why are those words even coming out of my mouth you know i was like of course you can switch the tempo but for some reason we think we can't

Yeah, our linear brains. People are nerds, dude. People have got to relax. That's my only takeaway from all this. People have got to fucking relax. I'll consider you a trailblazer in that production world because of that, but I want to know what the next step is for the next Chaparron song. Is the chorus volume going to be lowered? Are we going to get really crazy and just make the chorus quieter? Yes, the mix is going to get – yeah, oh, my God. That's cool. That's revolutionary stuff right there. That's revolutionary stuff right there. That would be a real, like, real – That's a flex. That would be a real game changer right there. Something to think about outside the box. No, this chorus needs to drop in volume. Because, you know, the old DJ trick is lower the volume right before the chorus or the drop. Sure. Instead of making the chorus louder, just lower the volume of the part right before the pre-chorus, you might call it. Yeah. Is that a – That's a DJ trick? I know some DJ producers will do that when you want to feel, you know, because it's all about the drop and it's like the do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do and the crazy buildup. Right. And then when it hits, it's super loud, but most, you know, it's better to just duck the volume a little bit right before and you don't have to make, it just automatically sounds louder without having to. you know, add the compression or limiting or whatever. I should maybe try that. I always, I always just like, sometimes I'll like, if I feel like the course needs to be louder, I'll just raise the chorus volume. But maybe you're right. Maybe I just got to lower the pre-course volume. Okay. All right, Jason, stop giving away free game because this guy's going to use it. This guy's going to use it. So do I give you my BMI number or how does this work for the next billing cycle? You can call my ASCAP representative and you guys can sort this out. Because my checks have been a little light lately. So this is going to give me a boost that I need. I saw my friend yesterday who was on Curb Your Enthusiasm when he was a kid, or when he was in middle school, and he just got a nice little check, he said, and he's like 26. It took that long for the money to come through, but I was very impressed. Did he play the little gay boy that wanted a sewing machine for Christmas? He might have, honestly. I don't remember. I don't remember. That really stuck with you.

Is your friend the gayest guy alive? No, no, no. He's the opposite. Okay, then it's not him. Okay, I got it. Okay, maybe he is an actor. Well, speaking of the gayest things alive, let's talk about your emo band. Not your band specifically, but emo in general. I know, because I didn't want to bring this up at the top here, but I used to manage a band called Cartel. Oh! We toured with you guys quite often. You played a lot of shows together. Oh, my God. So we have encountered each other in some depressing places. Wow. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah, we've had to – we've seen some sad backstages at some point, you know, in our lives together. But, yeah, I don't – I feel like you made it out better than anyone else maybe from that entire world except like – i guess panic at the disco i don't know who else like i don't know who else is kind of figured out he's on he's doing kinky boots on broadway it seems pretty good you know wait who's doing will is no no the singer of panic at the disco okay no will would i wish will was doing kinky boots that would be really great that would be cool for everyone that'd be cool for everyone oh shit that's amazing oh my god i haven't thought oh man will i miss will What a sweet guy. You guys played a lot of shows together, I feel like. Did we do a full U.S. tour together? I bet you really miss getting in the van. You know what I mean? I'm sure that's really tough. Dan, during those years, were you partying as hard as Cartel may have been partying or not so much? I definitely partied pretty hard. More so just drinking a lot. It's kind of crazy. Now to think about it, I guess, I mean, I'm 42. It's like, man, we used to party so hard back then. I've told this story before to Jason, but Cartel had a reputation. There were pussy bands that wouldn't tour with them because they partied too hard. Wait, really? Yeah. What does that mean? What's the point of being in a band? You're 22. This is the time when you do this. This is the time when you do this. You've got to set your boundaries.

Everyone plays a little rougher than others. When did you know it was time to give it up? Like, was the writing on the wall? I was just never, like, I mean, it's one of those things where, you know. Warped Tour 2009. Warped Tour 2004. Warped Tour 2004. Okay. I actually met, yeah. Get me out of here. Jesus. What is that, 20 years ago now? I don't know. I mean, like, listen, you know what? I mean, obviously, you manage cartels, so you know what it's like. They were obviously more successful than As Tall as Lines was. We never were able to, like, make it work. Like, we, like, were just on the cusp of, like, being able to, like, be financially independent. And, like, we all still live with our parents. And, like, that part of it drove me crazy. Like, you know, I just, I don't know. I wanted to have a little bit more independence, like, just as a person. And I did it. We did it for some. there's a part of me that wants that was like, was fine with what's the word? Like, you know, like slugging it out a little bit, like, you know, and living in a van was fine. But like, once it got to the point where like creative differences were too like high and we were clearly like trying to make different music, you know, this ain't worth it. I'm not sleeping in the van for that. Yeah, exactly. I think it, for me, it was, it was pretty simple. It was like at one point I was like, I don't, I'm not even happy making the music right now, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so. I just, why would I do this? No, that's, I mean, that's mature. Cause I think, I think at that point in many of our lives, especially if you're doing something like that, it really feels like life or death. You know what I mean? It feels like if I don't do this, what am I going to do? What, no matter what ideas you have or what your plans are, it's still pretty daunting. I think. I felt, I was really, I was, I was so lucky that, you know, um, my friend, Justin Raisin was like, he was out here and he was working with REO Rekshite at the time. And basically like,

he helped convince me to like, like not convince me, but he helped encourage me to like, like it, there's another path in this. Take the leap. Yeah. Take the leap. Cause did you have, but did you have those ambitions or was that something that was kind of presented to you as an option that you would never even considered? It wasn't, I, it was an option that I had never even considered until I was with Justin. And I remember like I was at, basically it came out. It was like the summer of 2010. And we were like working on some solo music for me. I was just making a bunch of songs with him. And he was given the opportunity to work on like a commercial. And like, he was explaining to me how like commercials were made, like how, how you can make money making music jingles or whatever. And. Jingle boy. Jingle. Yeah. And basically I got, he got a commercial in the door. And then I worked on it with him and then we ended up landing it. It was like, I feel like it was like this like Mentos commercial. I don't even remember what it was. It was, and when I say jingles, I meant like, it was not even like vocals. It was simply just like the background music, you know? Yeah. And it was at that, I remember it was at that moment. Cause, and I think it paid like $500. It wasn't even, it wasn't even like, it wasn't even like it was a lot of money. It was simply the fact that like we made a piece of music and then somebody. paid us for it got paid for it yeah and then i was like wait like you can make money like it didn't matter like how much i was like i was like because i couldn't figure out how to make money in my band you know yeah so you're like i love demo fees i love demo fees literally yeah i could live off this what do you mean this is great i get to shower i mean if you can if you can make two grand a month off of demo fees when you're in your early 20s like that's all you need like you are walking on air And that's what it was for me. It was that moment of being like, wait, I can actually afford rent on an apartment or something. And that was the most exciting thing to me was simply being able to afford rent and not have to live with my parents. That's a big step in every man's life. I think we can all relate to that to some extent. Especially if you're able to do it.

doing something you love and have fun doing it maybe even while you're on drugs or alcohol and still doing it instead of having to go punch a clock that's i honestly like that and the the part of it that was interesting to me was that it was fun i actually like making music where it wasn't about me where i was like not having to think about like oh, what is the thing that I need to say today? That was the most exciting part. I was like, oh, I could actually go into a studio and just make music for fun, and it's actually really enjoyable. I didn't think about how freeing that is. What does a Kit Kat bar have to say? We're going to get to the bottom of this today. What does this Kit Kat bar mean? And then I'm sure that helped you for moving on, writing songs for products. pharmaceutical companies and things like that and then you can you know use some of those skills in the studio with with rodrigo or or chapel or yeah i mean it's super helpful to be able to just like make different styles of music all the time and then like you learn about those different styles of music and you become more versatile because when you're in a band especially that kind of band you're you're kind of pigeonholed yeah like you're not there's not a lot of room to experiment and you're just making that same type of music all the time I remember having to study You know, like, different, like, oh, like, those are, like, literally just, like, even thinking about, which is so, like, silly to think about now, but, like, at the time, like, oh, these are chord progressions that are happy chord progressions as opposed to, like, you know, a sad, like, so, and being in a band, I was like, well, we always just wrote sad songs, you know, like. Yeah, like, bro, what is this shit? Why does McDonald's want this? Oh, it's happy, I guess. Okay, so your hands, when you're doing the bar chords, you had to retrain your hands how to not make. I hate my mom and I'm going to cut myself music. Yeah. It's like relearning to walk. So when you were growing up, a young emo man, we're all around the same age. What was your emo? I guess you did top five BPMs. What were the top five emo influences when you first got started?

When I first got started, I loved – my first obsession in emo was saves the day. Okay. Honestly, it could be worse. I was expecting worse. What were you expecting? I don't know exactly, but this question is loaded, and there's a lot of wrong answers. Saves the day is a very reasonable answer. Chris is saying, I sent you out into a minefield. You took one step, and you didn't step on a bomb. So far, so good. You're fine. You're good. We've only taken one step, though. Okay, but here's my question to you guys. When you say emo, what are the first bands that come to mind for you guys when you say emo? Well, for me, it's probably the same stuff you would think, even though I could be the Rites of Spring, Texas is the Reason, Sunny Day Real Estate guy. That to me is also just like, that's more alternative music to me. Right. Or like almost college radio, like college rock to me. We could we could pick the the Matty Healy emo where it's like, you know, like you said, like the D.C. kind of rites of spring, whatever, like that kind of cap and jazz. But I don't. Yeah. But I don't think that I would say save this saves the day is when I would pick for sure. Yeah. OK. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I actually listen. You know, I listened to the first time in a while. I mean, it's probably like 15 years, but I was like trying to think of. the fire theft you remember the fire oh yeah yeah yeah for sure but that was that the guy was that the guy from sunday real estate oh sunday real estate i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry yes okay okay i mean i don't think that yeah i just feel like that that genre also got so popular there's just things like i think of taking back sunday because that's like right who who was around i i don't i can't like separate that yeah from what i like yeah in high school when i was a senior when i was a senior in high school i discovered safe today and that was like my like my first foray into emo but it's honestly like didn't like last that long you know like i feel like i was like into the safe today and the get up kids and jimmy world which which also like really isn't an emo band and by any regards you know i would say yeah i i know get up kids are extremely an emo band when you really think about it and the get up kids holds up that shit's good it's pretty good yeah

I kind of feel like the through being cool saves the day stuff holds up too. I was like, listen to, I listened to it recently. I was like, this, these songs are good. You know? I mean, that was also just like a legendary, like the fucking. album cover. The whole thing was like a moment. It was like a real thing. Your two fingers pointing together. When you sit on the couch, your feet are turned into, your toes are touching. I'm just a little... I don't know nothing. I don't like date weeping at all. It was that kind of vibe, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, that is the vibe. But yeah, I mean, Saves the Day, that's a pretty good one. That's a pretty good one. I was... All right, let's keep it going, though. Sorry. We've been... Honestly, it was like, Saves the Day, Get Up Kids. Jimmy World. Jimmy World. I'm trying... Because... Because it quickly switched for me. That's what I listened to when I was a senior in high school. But then I went to college, and then all of a sudden it was like Coldplay and Radiohead and Bjork and Neil Young. Yeah, yeah. But for some reason, I always try to explain it like, you know, I mean, if you were from Long Island at the time, it's like there was only an emo scene. Oh, really? There was nothing. I mean, hardcore emo. If you couldn't be, like, in a pop band and, like, go and play at the downtown or, you know, the Village Pub South, like, those places, like, there was just, like, the scene was, like, so ingrained in emo that, like, our band kind of became an emo band even though, like, when you listen to, like, our records, like, I guess it really wasn't that emo, you know? It was, like, a weird version of rock music, but, like... Yeah, I mean, Long Island was ground zero, which I didn't... fully realized at the time i i just but then i i've read a couple of these emo books that have come out over the last couple years and it's like new jersey and long island were it that's like all that mattered right and i'm it's so interesting that like the suburbs had that much power but even like i mean like you like cartel like cartel was like considered a pop punk band but like they weren't it was like a pop band you know like yeah for sure for sure you know yeah yeah it's i mean i but you have to categorize things that's just how it is yeah you know it's just that's just how it is but i mean i think that

long island was like mythical which is so funny because it i i've i've obviously never you you're from there correct yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so do you do you think what was the who were like the local heroes though who was like the like that is the band we want to be i feel like i feel like glass jaw was like a big one back then like everybody like looked up to glass jaw and who i mean like i mean taking back sunday and brand new were both from long island everybody like that's like those are the bands that like They got off Long Island and had massive success. You had people to look to. If one of those emo bands hit you up today, if Saves the Day is going to write a new album and they said, Dan, we want you to produce it, are you going to make room on your busy calendar for them or are we going to have to say no, bro? Nothing. Again, this has nothing to do with Saves the Day. I feel like I don't take a stance on... I'm not into producing... anything that has nostalgia for me. Oh, you know, we're always moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, I feel like that. I feel like I would rather work on something new and work with people that like newer artists. then go back into my own history of what I liked when I was younger. Okay, let me rephrase the question. Let's say you get an email. Neil Young wants to get into the studio. I want Dan to produce his new album. He was speaking in nostalgia. What do we say? No. No. No, that's even more risky. Take a hike, Neil. This is a very mature outlook, Dan, because I feel like we're all so nostalgia-pilled, and it's like it would be tough to say no, but I think you've got the right mindset. I think you're absolutely – you're right. I'm wrong. I feel like there's so many people who do it. Yeah, for sure. It's a natural trajectory for a producer is to find success and then somehow go backwards. Interesting. I don't know. I feel like it's something that I know what I'm good at as a producer, and there's no reason to do stuff that was my favorite thing growing up. It feels like it's not the right path for me. Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, for sure. And you think about it a certain way, and that's hard to change. Yeah. Well, I guess in pop music or just any music in general,

I feel like we're always on the cusp of the new sound du jour happening. What do you think that sound is right now? And what do you think it's going to be in a year from now? Don't say your own shit. Don't say your own shit. No, no. Oh my God. I would never say that. I would never say that. Just at the table, we kind of, it feels like we're on the, on the end of like the country fried pop kind of vibe. There's still, you know, chapel is obviously. Pink hats and cowboy vibes and Beyonce and all these people. But that can only last for so long. Pharrell, everyone is doing the cowboy thing. So that's going to leave. Techno is huge. Fast BPMs are big again in the club. Rap music is sounding real kind of pussy. Is techno becoming big right now? Yeah. Like 140 BPM fast techno is the most popular genre with the kids compared to like. like you know we talk about we talk about i mean rap music is just dead like it's not even charting like it's not like what it was in the 2010s right it's kind of insane actually to see i just you never think of something diminishing that much when it was so popular listen i i'll i preface it by saying that i feel like i know like nothing about it but it does feel like trends are getting like like the way that things are being like repurposed are happening quicker you know yeah yeah like the the pendulum is swinging faster in a shorter distance faster faster yeah which also i agree with that which i think is also in a in a in a positive way good because it kind of makes like all genres in a way like have like some sort of relevance you could be doing pop music you could be doing rock music you could be doing dance music and like all of it is like pop you know like if you look at charlie like it's dance you know and sabrina's doing straight up pop music you know which is and that's really popular as well and then you have Apple, which is like has like rock influences and there's organic instrumentation in songs. And that's really popular. And then you have other artists that are doing country. And I kind of feel like anything, as long as people are making something that feels authentic to themselves, it actually has quite a good shot at being at the top. So hopefully the pendulum will reach a singularity where the only way to become famous in music is to write.

Songs that are good. That's it. That's what we're hoping. Fingers crossed. It doesn't matter what the genre is. Fingers crossed. The genre of good songs will be the final. That's my favorite genre. That's my favorite. I do think that good songs are like – it's like – the songwriting is really pop is really in style right now which is so great yeah no for sure well i think to be clear there's a difference between hit songs and good songs sorry right there's just though there's also i think there's like an appetite for people to like work with people it's it's different like every no one's afraid to have a hit i feel like is what i mean like they're happy to collaborate and i think that used to be You know, a couple of decades ago, I think that was frowned upon or at least kept in the shadows a little more than it is now. Yeah, I just read something. I forgot somebody tweeted about it. But the oh, yeah, Jesse David Fox, who's been on the pod, he's a comedy writer. He received a press press release from a comedian trying to cancel himself as a means of finding stardom in his field. So I feel like, you know, then I was really thinking about that, like how everyone has. spent the last five years navigating the minefield of cancellation, doing anything but saying something that could be controversial, and now people are realizing that's one of the only paths to success is to be canceled. How do you think that's going to fit into the music world? I don't know if I have a good answer to that. I mean, I think with comedians, they really need that. They need that more than a hit. You know what I mean? You can't have a hit joke that's going to propel you. You have to have a shtick that's bigger than the joke itself. And I guess it depends on what you're being canceled for as well. That's true. Yeah, of course. I killed a guy. Yeah, that's a major factor. That's a major factor. Are you taking some time off for the holidays, or are you in the lab right now? It's funny. I am working more now than I was a few months ago. I feel like I actually took some time off before, and now I'm kind of in the thick of trying to get some songs done right now. So if people call you, are you happy to do a couple songs, or do you want to do a whole record? I really work with very few people.

And it's very, very based on what I think I'm going to be helpful with, who I can actually help make great music with. And so I prefer to be more fully involved in the project. But there are times that I just do a couple songs, and I'm happy to do that. But I prefer not to do that, but I will do it. Sure. When Kylie Minogue calls. Are you willing to? Are you willing? Are you willing to say who the best person you said no to was? The best person I said no to? Well, I mean, would it be the best person or would it be the worst person? That's a good point. I mean, like somebody that you said before, like I wouldn't work with Neil Young because it's a nostalgia play. Is there somebody who you had to say no to because of your morals? You're trying to get me canceled right now, right? I'm not trying to get you canceled. I'm trying to get you to say I loved this person so much. It was so hard for me to say no. I will only do a full album with you or whatever. You know what I mean? I'll never say. You're a pro. He's an adult, Jason. And I like that you tried, but I like that you tried. I'm sorry, go ahead, Dan. No, I want to talk about natural wine with you. Oh, okay. Please. All right, I'll head out. You guys go ahead. As I was doing research, I read an interview with you guys. So are you a natural wine person? I'm not, actually. I'm not a natural wine person. You're not? No. He's in recovery from being a natural wine person like a lot of people. I drink, but I don't consider myself to be an enthusiast. I'm more of a food expert than a wine expert. Oh, you're a food expert. Well, I just read in an interview that you said you like to have a nice glass of natural wine. Yeah. I mean, I like a lot of things that I'm not an expert in, but yeah. I'm just curious as someone in L.A. With natural wine, what is it about natural wine that you like? It's a great question. And no one seems to have the answer to this question. The cute label? The next guest that we have on our podcast wrote an entire book about it, and I will recommend it to you. It's written by Dan Keeling. He does a wine magazine and publication called Noble Rot. Okay, so should we not talk about natural wine then right now? No, no, no. I would say...

It's a great question. And I think that it's like a response to sort of the wine world is just there's just millions and millions of bottles of uninspired wine that's just made to be yummy and cheap and real wine that artisans have made and poured their love and thought into. It has flaws, but it also has. things that are alive about it that other wines don't and they're willing to take a chance on drinking a wine that might have some funky flavors or some odd characteristics if it means that you're just drinking something different and unique and alive compared to a bottle of josh that you get at trader joe's and you're like oh it tastes like wine yummy so it's kind of similar to like the rise of raw milk okay So then how does somebody who doesn't understand, like doesn't know, like have a vocabulary in it, like how do we get, how do you find a good one? You go to domain and you give them your credit card and then you just kind of let them cook. You know, I think it's the best. I think it's the best. No, I mean, I feel like with anything like that, if you go to these people, because I don't drink, I'm sober and I go, I buy wine all the time to like go to parties or whatever. Right. And it's. it's amazing how helpful i would say that's one of the most helpful industry like when you go into a place and you have no idea what you're doing they're very helpful in a way that isn't like talking down i i would say more than anything i've ever experienced honestly yeah yeah yeah you could just go in and be like yo i'm a dumbass like help me out I don't know. This is what I like. That's what this book does. There's a chapter that's like, what kind of wine do I buy for people who don't know anything about wine and could care less where it's from or what kind it is, just as long as it's yummy and affordable? Chris doesn't drink. He's sober, and he can go into a wine store and say, hey, I don't even drink. I don't give a fuck about this. These are my friends. This is what they're into. This is the food that we're eating. This is the price point. And then all you can really do is trust them because otherwise...

The other way to do it is painstakingly drink every bottle, write down tasting notes about it. The other option's bad. The fact of the matter is there's thousands and thousands of types of wine, and you're never going to drink all of them. It's like music recommendations. Fine, you're into this shit. It's the same, yeah. You're into this shit. Let's see where the Venn diagram meets. I'll probably like this, this, and this. you kind of go out from there but it's not easy and i'm that's why it's really daunting to me and why i usually just drink vodka instead right because yeah we have plenty we have plenty of friends i mean jason probably more than me that really are like fucking knee deep like emil i'm sure you know emil emil haney he's a he's a real wine expert him and uh eric warheim and a bunch of other yeah i just don't know what the i i think that the I think there are very few experts and a lot of novices, so that's why the stores are so helpful because they know that that's the deal. But yeah, I would say that I usually tell them what we're going to eat. That's the best way to narrow it down. I would say my favorite way to do it is go to a restaurant where you know the food is cool and you like and they kind of match your sensibilities of style and cuisine and everything. just drink the wines that they have selected to pair with that food specifically uh like i went to a restaurant last night called yes with two s's it's like a japanese spot downtown it was really good but they're like we have this smoked chicken wing with japanese spicy mustard and then this sort of funky um like sparkling champagne-ish wine really pairs well with this smoked chicken wing and we're like okay and we ate it and drank it together and we're like oh this is really good and i would have never ordered that wine because it sounded stupid but now i really like it right okay yeah it's the same dan if i want a song i'm coming to you if you want wine you got to go to a restaurant or a wine store it's a very simple do you have to trust the process as they say sure sure but you have enough money to

Get one of the wine fridges off of your Instagram Explore page stories. Yeah. Go to Psychic Wine. Go to Domain. Put, you know, five grand on the Amex and just start drinking around. What's Domain? What's Domain? It's a wine store in West Hollywood. It's like on Melrose. It's my local. It's the place where I buy all this stuff. That's where I go. But also the people that do that restaurant or do Domain just open a restaurant. called Bar Etoli. So you can go there, order a steak fried or whatever it is that floats your boat, and get a couple glasses and see what you like. Dan, look, if these guys are already in the backyard digging a hole, might as well put a cellar somewhere, too. I mean, fuck it. I thought you were going to say plant some grapes. Might as well plant some vines. Yeah, there we go. I know enough that that'll take 20 years to at least. That's true. Okay. So you do, but have you started, have you started collecting stuff? Are you like buying shit? I just, I can't get into natural wines and I just find every time I go to a restaurant and somebody offers me like a natural wine, I'm always just like, I'm so not into it. And so many people are so into it. And I'm just so, I feel like I'm like, I'm missing the like. I'm missing the picture. Well, I would say the tide has turned on that, and I think there's been a big movement away from natural wine, and I think a lot of people are sort of licking their wounds of being abused by the flavors of natural wine the last few years. We went too far. We were too nice with these unique winemakers. And we should have been saying, like, this is objectively shit. And now we're afraid of natural wine and we're heading back to the classics a little bit more. And then the natural wines that are legitimately good will stick around. But then the shitty ones with, like, the cartoon handwritten label and it's all. whatever, there's shit in the bottom of the bottle and it's $58 and those are going to die. Natural selection. Natural selection is what I would say. The natural selection, natural wine. Yeah, and also you don't have to drink natural wine. Nobody is impressed when you drink natural wine. I know what you mean. You're trying to understand because it's like everybody likes it. I was trying to understand. I just wanted to understand it.

something because you go to a restaurant or you go you know like a wine bar and then like oh this is what we have this is like our natural something and then i try it and i'm like oh this i don't like this and i'm like maybe there's something that i maybe there's actually like a starting place of like this is how this is exactly how i feel about frank ocean so i'm glad you brought this up everybody talks about it i i go i listen i don't get it and then everybody acts like i'm crazy you know and i just i've waited long enough he hasn't put out music in so long that it's fine and maybe you can maybe you can just wait it out okay so dan dan what's uh what's that restaurant in pasadena i forgot uh whatever but bar chelou yeah yeah bar chelou you go into bar chelou here's a natural wine and you take a sip and you go this is really cool i love the bottle but do you have any natural wine that's good and then chris is like love the whole frank ocean thing blonde is cool do you have any songs that are good yeah do you have any songs do you have anything that's not like a vibe that i could latch on to is that possible is that possible that's amazing uh no That is, all right, well, look, we've given you an education on natural line as best we could. Thank you for joining us today on How Long Gone, Dan. It was a pleasure. Big fans of your work, and I hope you keep cranking it out over there in Pasadena. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Good luck with the pool. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye, guys.

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