034. - Wesley Eisold

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Good morning, Chris. Good afternoon, Teej. How are you feeling? I'm feeling okay. You know, as good as one can be in our times. Yeah, it's really something out there, man. I don't really... Yeah, I was talking earlier with someone. I was like, I know it can get worse, but I don't know what that looks like. I mean... I guess I know what it looks like. What is that, Jason? Well, I mean, you know, like an escalating situation, you know, the president tweeting, you know, looting equals spraying of bullets type of thing, you know, martial law type of scenarios. The police being taken over and then the military having to step in. Uh, yes. I mean, that's, that, that is a point by point plan. Um, but all of that stuff sounds so just not really fathomable, but I know it's all possible. I mean, when I saw the guy get the, the, when they arrested that CNN reporter this morning, that was pretty mind blowing to me. Um, but I also think that the sad reality is this stuff isn't necessarily shocking anymore. You know, it is. No. Yeah. I mean, we are, we are desensitized to it. You know, all of us, unfortunately, which is, you know, it's important to stay sensitized by it without it, you know, just ruining your entire life. But, you know, life is very hard for a lot of people. And if we can't do anything about it directly, then we have to at least better ourselves and the people around us however we can. to make the next generation a little less terrible agreed i mean i think i i personally struggle with talking about stuff like this because i feel like my voice in this situation is not really relevant as an upper middle class white man who's never struggled in his life uh it doesn't really i don't really know what i can offer to the conversation you know i don't feel well equipped i guess let's say yeah i mean that's that's something

You know, that's something that people like us have been able to say forever. And we kind of have to start looking at a new way of looking at that. You know, like even just our Twitter mentions a little bit, you know, there's sort of the two sides of the conversation in one, you know, like one person is tweeting, you know, you guys are not. We recorded an episode. that we put up yesterday and somebody said nothing about Minneapolis. Come on, guys. And then somebody else said, you know, what do these coastal tattooed bros have to add to the conversation? Everything doesn't need to be a seething race war programming content. And that's sort of like the two different ways that you can look at anybody who is creating content or media of like, first of all, how could you... talk about anything or release anything or promote anything in a time when, you know, millions of people's lives are being fucked up. And then also how, you know, how does somebody like me or you or many other people in a privileged situation, you know, add, add to the positive change? And that's, it's hard. Well, we talked about a little bit earlier, and I think this this is somewhat true. It's like, well, people listen to the show and people, you know, no matter what they come here for, they're coming here. You know what I mean? So it's like I think that does give us an interesting position of a captive audience. So, you know, while we have them, I guess it's it's it can't always be, you know. jokes and fun. Life contains multitudes. I think now is just a really volatile time. It's amazing to think that a week ago we were worried about going to a restaurant or whatever. Life comes at you fast. It really happened that quickly.

We're on the verge of a full on race war and the police are out of control and the president's out of control. The media is being censored. So all of that stuff is it's a lot to take in, a lot to process. But the bottom line of all of it, which makes it very easy, is that it's all fucked up. It's all wrong. You know, it's not there's no wavering on or trying to understand how to speak about it versus trying to understand how to feel about it are two very different things. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, the way that one person feels about it is a lot different than the way that they would publicly speak about it. Usually, you kind of have to pick a side or you're going to be with the people against it or you're going to be the silent people who are for it. There are many people who aren't into all of this stuff. They do want racism and those people are very bad and wrong. And the way, you know, people are afraid to speak their opinions if they feel like they have powerful opinions because it will turn some people off. And influential people are afraid of losing their influence or losing their fan base or their following if they say something wrong. So it's easier to just say nothing at all, which is a problem. You know, I'm guilty of that, and I'm sure you are as well. Oh, 100%. Well, it's also, I think that, you know, it's, yeah, that's exactly what it is. Well, I think, you know, you could trace pretty much every problem back to just fear in general. And, you know, if we have not, if we've chosen to not really speak politically about this. Because we wanted to have, you know, the intention of our podcast and almost all the stuff we do is a little more satirical, lighthearted, comedic, escapism. You know, we created this podcast as a way to, you know, sort of protest against the mania created around COVID. And, you know, hey guys, you know, life is not all about reading terror porn in the news and death and destruction.

We still need to have a little bit of, you know, a way to release some steam and have a laugh whether or not it's at somebody's expense. But, you know, it's fear in saying the wrong thing and pissing people off and getting canceled and losing everything that you've worked for. Or fear, you know, for people like me, it's just, you know, I'm uneducated. And I see a lot of people who are educated about this matter and research it constantly and have really insightful opinions on everything and powerful words. And I don't think I am an authority to speak on that. Therefore, I fear speaking about it at all because I would be at risk of sounding like an idiot. And I have a great fear of sounding like an idiot. I sound like an idiot all the time. Unfortunately, that's not my excuse. I think it's more, yeah, I just think it's no matter what the fear is or if it's like a lack of confidence or whatever it may be, I mean, the bottom line is there's right and wrong, you know? And something like this is unjust and wrong. And, you know, there's no other way to look at it, really. You know, like it's not really, it is nuanced, but it's also not. Like racism is fucked up. You can't kill somebody. Because of the color of their skin, you can't, you know, it's just a long, it's what America is built on, unfortunately. And it flares up, obviously, for people like us, when it's big stories like this, and we see the news, because, you know, this is not our everyday lives, because we're white. You know, that's the bottom line. And it's not that anyone's trying to ignore anything, per se. But our reality and a black man's reality are two very different things. And that is, I think, the thing that needs to be understood most is that I can't begin to relate, but I can at least, you know, support what's right. Yeah. And we're, you know, I feel like, you know, people.

people like us, people of our age and upbringing and demographic, we sort of have to kind of shed some old skin in order to move on and progress. And there is not really much that you and I can do. I mean, I guess the way that I look at it is my way of trying to... make the world around me a little bit more equal is to just treat everybody equally and have it be you know painfully normalized to the point where it's not you know nobody gets special treatment everyone is treated the same it doesn't matter if you are privileged or underprivileged or minority or not or you know whatever your whatever you identify as I think that you know I've always felt that talking that way in a way that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings or offend anyone is, you know, what I can do myself to try and make the world around me a better place. And I think everyone needs to kind of figure out what that is. And to me, that is like making the sacrifice of like maybe offending somebody or maybe hurting someone's feelings. But I know that deep down there's somebody out there who is glad that a little bit of normalizing is happening and people are being treated equally. And, you know, at that way, you know, eventually it could lead to, you know, true equality one day, however many decades that's going to take. I mean, agreed, agreed. And I mean, I think that the, you know, we're a very staunch fuck 12 podcast. But I mean, this shit, I mean, one of the craziest things that I've seen, I mean, beyond, you know, the murder of, of. Floyd, is that the people that are upset about a fucking target burning, you know what I mean? Guys, it's like we can't putting the value of corporations. This is from somebody who patronizes corporations every day. I'm not, but we can never value a corporation more than a human life. That is, unfortunately, feels very American and very fucked up.

And that has really, I mean, among obviously many, many things, that is something that's been pretty eye-opening. Not that I didn't realize it before, but again, it's put into your face and you're forced to reckon with it. And I think there's a lot of people in this country that feel that way. Like a broken window at Target is more offensive to them than a dead man. And that, I mean, that is troubling. And I don't even know where that stems from. But, you know, it's really something to think about. It stems from people thinking that other types of people are lesser than. Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. And that's just, you know, I think as we move forward, you know, it seems like our world is a very terrible, fucked up place right now because it is. But I think that we have improved, you know, over the whatever hundreds of years. And it's just a slow process that. is seemingly getting sped up more and more now that we have ways and tools to hold the police more accountable. And our legal system has to do the same and make sure that if people are murdering people, police or not, that those people are punished accordingly and they have real consequences. So people who want to do that in the future... We'll think twice and not do it. You know, real crimes need real punishments. And they haven't really had any punishments. No, I mean, for sure. I mean, I think that you've seen that. I mean, even these, you know, just before we started this podcast, they arrested the cop. And, you know, it took three days, you know. And it's like, I do think that the pressure that people have, I do think that actually made a difference. You know what I mean? Like lighting a fucking police station on fire and fucking up a target. uh is going to make them take notice you know and and i i'm not saying of course it should have happened faster of course it you know but i do think that stuff worked in some regard um and that is you know that's just it's almost it's unfortunate but it's almost positive that at least something worked um even though it took too much time and it's tragedy at least like you know going

going extreme actually gets results, which I think is, is something that is a lesson to be learned. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Exactly. Um, okay. Well, uh, I'm glad we, glad we had a chance to talk about that. I think it is important. And, um, you know, uh, I've donated, I've donated some money. I'm sure you've donated some money. You know, all you guys, you're on Twitter, you're on Instagram, you know where to go. Um, I think those causes are important. You don't need any more sneakers. You know, my vitamins can wait a couple days. You know what I'm saying? There's bigger fish to fry. Anyway, on today's show, special edition, just a bonus episode. Would you call it a bonus episode? I would call it a bonus episode. Yeah, I mean, you know, we strike when the iron is hot, and we had the opportunity to get a member of hardcore royalty. It's true. Great musician. Wesley Eisold, you might be familiar with him from American Nightmare, which later changed their name to Give Up the Ghost, and then Some Girls, and now Cold Cave. He also has Heartworm Press, where he publishes books. He writes poetry. He's a hardcore legend and a really interesting guy who's had a really interesting kind of career trajectory and just life in general. So we're going to catch up with him today. Perhaps he'll have some poetic insights on the world today. I'm sure he will. I'm going to give him a call. All right. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools.

So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early, and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot.

Because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code How long? Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. How's it going? Good, Matt. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I'm in Los Angeles. Where are you two at? I'm actually in Montreal. I live in New York, but my girlfriend lives here, so I've been quarantined for a couple months. And Jason is actually in LA. Yeah, baby. Hey, Jason. Hey, hi from Glendale, the real LA. What neighborhood do you live in? I live in Beachwood Canyon. Oh, I love that. Yeah. I didn't know what the answer would be, but that's the... maybe the best answer. I think I don't, I'm not, I'm real anti downtown. So I was hoping you were going to say that. Yeah. I don't, I don't really care too much for it either. I've never, I've never understood the appeal. I just feel like if you want that, you can live in New York. I think people like don't know that. Well, that's why, that's why you came on the show today, baby. We do need to spread the word about how downtown LA smells like human urine.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, I don't understand the appeal either. I think people didn't know there were other options and they like advertisements and just, you know, it looked nice and it was a little bit cheaper than the loft they couldn't have in New York. So they just moved in. Now, I mean, it's very well known that you've lived like truly all over the place. But where did you live before LA? I was in New York. oh you were okay so was it just time to go because you were going to start a family and shit or was it just like no no no that came after i moved here um i i'm a habitual mover so i had sort of just i was in new york for three or four years i was in philly before that and everywhere just sort of a couple years and then i was on tour all the time i was in new york and I was just being bad there. When you say being bad, elaborate on that, please. Like you were eating too much pizza or you were hurting yourself and your friends and family? Be cool if you just said yes. It's a little of both. I would go from just benders to... weeks of sobriety to weeks of vendors to, you know, with just too much time. And what is your bend of choice? If you don't mind me asking, well, you know, I don't have a bend of choice right now. I'm much more mellow, but, um, I was up for any, any bend, you know, you're talking to two guys. At one point in their life, we're also up for any bends, actually. Yeah, that's very cool. What did you struggle with in the past? And you're like, I don't know. What do you got? Yeah. I had some errors of that. I think it was important to stay flexible for a while. I like that. You don't want to rule anything out. That would be unnecessary. And pretentious. Yeah, exactly. Habitual.

Fun haver with substances. Habitual mover. What else are we habitualizing, my friend? I was a habitual substance mover for a while also. Hey, hey, wow, wow. Damn, you were addicted to the game? But anyway, what else is habitual? No, these days I try to... keep that uh you know energy into more positive things so i like to i read a lot and i exercise a lot and i'm i've just never really been able to sit still and so um you know that's sort of that's sort of my thing i mean that makes sense why you'd be drawn to non-stop touring where for a time i'm sure there was not a lot of money coming in from that you know what i mean so uh But, you know, I wanted to talk to you about exercise because I've actually seen you at Barry's Boot Camp in L.A. before. Oh, cool. And I'm a big Barry's head. Well, we talk about it a lot on this podcast and exercise in particular. Jason can jump rope for an hour straight, which is his claim to fame. But I didn't know. You created that claim, not me. I mean, it's pretty impressive, dude. Like, I couldn't do that. I did 115 yesterday. Keep going. It's not important. What are you doing in the quarantine to stay fit? Do you have gear at home and shit, or are you just running? I'm home. I go for a lot of walks. I have a friend who owns a gym in the area, and it's closed. But I can go there occasionally and use a treadmill. Wow, VIP shit. Something like that, yeah. I was there this morning. I was there yesterday morning. So the rich stay richer. This is class warfare now. I've fallen out of shape, so I'm just trying to find my way back. So when Quar hit, did you take some time off? I did. I had a bizarre version. I guess it was panic, but it was more just like, okay, tours are canceled, festivals canceled, everything's in the air.

I need, I'm, I have like, you know, these gaps in between tours where I'm able to like mentally plan and facilitate my downtime. So without that, I had to just like start moving and doing stuff. So my partner owns a bookstore here in Hollywood and I just sort of like helped her sell books that we like to people who were interested and needed books to read at home during this whole thing. So I've been doing that. I didn't spend one day at home during the quarantine. I just couldn't do it. I would go to the closed bookstore or the closed gym and just kill hours working, really. That sounds honestly pretty ideal. I think that everybody hates their home right now. I've never wanted to see four walls less. I can't imagine being in New York right now. I'm glad I left. I'm glad I'm in Montreal, but I'm going back this week to reconnect with America. It's a good time. Great time. I figured why not wait until it's absolutely diabolical before I head back. I think that Canada in general is pretty mellow, so I felt like I was pretty blessed to have the opportunity. Absolutely. Living in Philadelphia seems crazy to me. I really want to unpack that. Did you just have friends there or did you really like it? I don't really have real friends. anywhere, I feel like. Damn, we could do a whole podcast about that, buddy. Well, what happened was I ended up moving from Boston to San Diego and decided I wanted to go back to school and live near a family who were based in D.C. at the time. So for some reason, I got... I was in bands, wasn't making any money, but didn't care either. I was offered a room in Richmond, Virginia. I went there and lived with some acquaintances for a couple hundred bucks for a room. I was going to take some classes. The week I got there, I went to visit my parents and they told me they were divorcing that week. My whole idea of going back to the East Coast to be near family was just foiled immediately. I didn't need

I didn't want to be in school. I didn't like it. I tried it for a couple weeks and then was offered a cheap place in Philadelphia. At the time, Philadelphia was appealing because it was sort of the best East Coast city where you didn't have to try very hard. That's an incredible review of Philadelphia just off top. You could be drunk the whole time and still maintain. 2.5 stars. I mean, you know, I would rather live there than Boston. Yeah. The fact that Boston, I mean, I guess Boston was a big part of, of, I mean, my life like tangentially because of hardcore, you know what I mean? And living in it, growing up in Atlanta, like all the Boston bands were so big in Atlanta and toured so much. And it was considered this like hotbed, but as an adult. I had to go to Boston a lot for work and I was like, I can't believe I ever thought this place was cool. Yeah, it was a strange, strange fluke. And then it's bizarre when you return there and trying to imagine how you could have ever had a relationship with it. I mean, there are beautiful parts of the city architecturally, particularly the older parts, but it just doesn't. There's a lot of guys who want to beat you up always. That's really what it's known for. That's literally what I think of is that. I can't imagine living there as a young person, but I guess there is such a university culture that there are a lot of young people around. There are, but as you said, it's university-based, so they come and go, and the guys that want to beat you up are always there. But when I lived there... Yeah, not like you Harvard boys. When I lived there, I was sort of... into that i i was up for that so you mean you were a you were a brawler i i i was fine with it yeah like um i had a lot of so you were one of the rare um hardcore straight edge people who like to fight very interesting i've never met one before well we all also chris and i both sort of grew up you know like in the hardcore straight edge world and we also had

friends probably of a similar vibe who wanted nothing you know like i grew up in orange county where it was a lot of racist skinhead bros who wanted to beat us up all the time and we were all like happy and excited about that because we wanted to beat them up as well yeah you kind of know where to place yourself so that someone else will start something with you and then you can just handle it and i'm a little i'm feeling a little left out atlanta was pretty non-violent i have to say You guys were too busy making your necklaces to really put in some work. That's true. That's dead-ass true. It's interesting that some pockets were so violent and so known for violence, but Boston particularly, of course it makes sense because it's violent anyway. Yeah, I don't know. It was fine. I think I am a bit immune to... how I might presently feel if these things were happening to me now. I lived in an apartment where my roommate was shot in the face while I was home. Wait, what? Oh, shit. In Boston? In Boston, my first apartment there, yeah. How old are you at this point? Probably 21. Was this pointed violence or was this random shit? No, it was strategic, actually. My roommate... sold drugs, and we were living in an entry-level, gentrified neighborhood, and they wanted the money and drugs. So he was a little green with it, and they talked him into doing some deal where he invited them into our home, and then he took them to the third floor where his room was, and I was on the second floor, and they taped him up. We heard a pop. I saw the two dudes run by, and then my roommate started walking down the staircase with a towel on his face and just blood spraying everywhere. We lived like two blocks from the hospital, so he just started walking to the hospital, and we gave him a ride. It went in through his cheek and out the back of his neck, and he survived. That's an insane story. That was my first apartment in Boston, and it didn't really bother me that much. We stayed there.

we were evicted shortly after for good reason that I think you can't do that in the least. Yeah. That seems, that seems reasonable from, from the landlord. I agree. Yeah. Um, but that was the house that, you know, where, when I started American nightmare, that's where we lived and the label we were on with our roommate there. And it was like, it was a, it was a strange time. And like, have you, do you guys, are you familiar with like, everyone keeps trying to like glorify, um, the selling of these t-shirts that say Yankee suck on it. You know, it's interesting. I had, so a bunch of my, well, a few of my friends, um, from Atlanta moved to Boston during this time and they did that. Like they were, it's the bridge nine shit, right? Like they were all. Yeah. So that was all based out of. Our apartment, really. Can you explain? The listeners might not know, but why don't you explain it? Because this is a pretty great story. Essentially, some people needed money and they thought of an idea to make some, which revolved around selling bootlegged merchandise that read Yankees suck on it via t-shirt stickers. They would hire our circle of friends to go peddle the stuff as Red Sox games were letting out in the Fenway area. That was violent and illegal. It was violent because you were getting in fights with Yankees fans? It wasn't that. It was more the aforementioned Bostonians that wanted stuff for free and were drunk. But this was a very profitable enterprise. It was very profitable. And cash only. Cash only. So you guys just made some pretty good money making bootleg Yankees suck shirts in Boston. Yeah. What did you use the money for? Paid rent at the time. Room and board. No one had a job, so it was just like...

I think there were scams going on before and after that. And that was just the more lucrative one, you know, that seems, I mean, I, there's nothing, the profit margin on a, on a one color screen print is very high. Yeah, totally. If you're, if you're wanting to risk your life for it, you know, then it's, it's going to pay off. Well, there was like, it was sort of like everyone would meet on the bridge going from Kenmore square to the park. And. You know, it was just everyone who was sort of in a band at that time. And so much so that it attracted fans eventually to just come look at everyone who was trying to make the rent, you know? Well, that's really crazy, actually. You had fans watching you sell t-shirts. Yeah, and fight and etc. And it was bizarre. But anyway, I think between that and Roommate selling drugs, It was a targeted house. They knew there was cash on hand. Does it feel good not to have to scam anymore? Oh, yeah. That's been a long time since I've had to scam. This podcast is actually a scam. That's why we were asking. I mean, life is a scam. That's very true. We've also talked about on this podcast with Darcy Wilder, who's a writer. She had been on the Internet Archive and was looking at makeoutclub.com. And she's younger than us. But I know that was also Boston-based, correct? Yeah, that was done by my friend Gibby, who now does Deus Records. Oh, is that who does that? Yeah. Oh, I didn't realize that. Okay, okay. So that, do you think, I feel like there needs to be a bigger oral history of that because I think it was really a precursor to a lot of things that have come to prominence. Yeah, it was. It was a billion dollar idea that probably made nothing. I think they should do another social network style film about Makeout Club.

That's a good question. Quentin Tarantino's new favorite movie is The Makeup Club. Trent Reznor is already down. Boston was just so fertile at that time. It's just interesting how cities, how that pops up like that. Yeah, I try to imagine that it wasn't because I, just because it had, in my outsider opinion now, it doesn't seem like that has happened again there. I don't know why that happened then. I know at the time for us, New York was boring, but we liked going to Philly, D.C. sometimes. They just had better shows, better DJ nights. New York seemed sort of outdated for a few years and then just demolished everything again. Well, you know, we're a resilient city. We try to bounce back, but I think you're right. I mean, New York goes in waves. That's just how it is. That's how like any, I think any major metropolitan area, that's what happens. People just cycle in and out. Yeah. So Wes, what do you think, you know, now that you've been in, you know, selling books and not touring or doing anything musically, what do you think is going to be changing? How do you think your life is going to? go back to normal what what things do you want to change about your life now that you've been quarantining oh like in a weird way i've been sort of unfazed by the quarantine in a strange way i get more frustrated with um i don't know like we were like i get more for my partner amy being a small business owner because you know every day we were tuning into like mayor giving updates and just looking for just some actual facts and direction information and it was just so it was just it's always a dribble and I found that frustrating because I've made all these tips in life to not have to partake in bureaucracy really and so having to kind of pay attention to that aspect of being a reasonable adult

It has been extremely frustrating for me. Yeah, you did a very good job designing your life to never have to worry about any of that shit. And now that you've been hit by Cupid's arrow, you're forced to deal with it. Yeah, I think it's temporary. I'm not someone who stands ahead. I never really have. I just have always maintained that things are uncertain. pretty fucked up anyway. To me, it's just, of course this is happening. Watching the news the past few days, of course this is happening. I've always just taken it like that. I grew up living on a lot of military bases and weird situations where I just had nothing in common with anyone and always thought things were pretty screwed up. That's not really new to me. I can relate to a lot of those feelings. I sympathize with people who have fallen ill, people who are having financial problems. Obviously, I sympathize with people's frustration and anger. I have a hard time sympathizing with people's irrational steps into whatever the future is going to be. I mean, do you think that as far as music goes, did you guys have like a lot of plans? Did you change and moved or were you off cycle? We had a tour we were going to do in June. We had a couple of festivals that were postponed and then canceled. We are, you know, we have 10 end updates for next year. I hope it happens. And if it doesn't, it's fine. I don't know. It's just always been uncertain. You know, in a way, like, we, Cold K as a band, like, bowed out of sort of playing any traditional music industry sort of thing years ago. So in that world, we're not on record cycles anyway. Like, we were touring for years without new music even. It just didn't, for some reason, it didn't seem to matter to us nor our audience. So in that respect...

it's not really that big of a deal. You know, people who are obligated to a label and to other people's money, you know, that's where it gets trickier because they have these records that are supposed to come out or do come out and there's no way to promote them. There's no way for them to have income on them. I put out my own records. I sell my own merch. I do my own mail order and it hasn't stopped. So it's like, I think making those steps nine, 10 years ago to be self-sufficient. has allowed us to truly be self-sufficient now i didn't i actually didn't i actually didn't fully realize that that's really impressive i mean was that but that was a conscious decision for this exact reason not for this reason and it wasn't initially a conscious decision on my part it was just the situation i found myself in and i i did a i did like a record and a half on a on a label and then that was up and i talked to other labels and just like in the meantime i had put out a single or two of my own but like the money I had made off of those were more than people were offering for an advance for an album. Fuck this. I think just doing punk and hardcore bands before that, it was always a hustle anyway. I had seen how things sort of run poorly, but it just made me realize I could do this myself and not have to do any of this. I don't really care if our records are reviewed. if there was a billboard or something on Suntech, just the climate of music has become so, so temporary anyway, that it just all seemed pretty futile to me, you know? No, I mean, the, the, the pace of everything is truly breakneck. I agree with you. And the, the it's, if you don't have to be in the game, why would you, you know, it also, I think that it also creates a different relationship with the fan, with the audience. probably one that's a little more long-lasting. Yeah, and with that said, a lot of people who listen to my band now used to listen to my old band, and that wasn't the case at first when I started this band, but over the past five or so years, those people have come around to it, and it's just been really...

rewarding in a very, very genuine way that just to have someone hearing what you're making and listening to and relating to it and telling you that they're relating to it after 20 years, that's enough to keep going on. It's rewarding in itself to not have to subscribe to any other accolades that musicians are typically. striving for. No, for sure. I think that's something that hardcore and punk totally can teach you. I think those ethics when applied at a higher level can still work pretty well. Those ethics make me psychotic still, too, because it's weird playing a different genre, if you will, of music and being around people who don't have those roots and just watching the way they I treat each other really is, is, is alarming to someone who grew up, you know, in a scene, if you will. I mean, I think there's also just shit that we were, at least for me and maybe for you guys, but just, we were exposed to some shit at a pretty young age that I don't know if I would have been exposed to otherwise, like growing up in the South, particularly, you know, not only politically, but just like ways of thinking that just, I don't know how I would have found them otherwise. And I think that stuff sticks with you, especially if you're in a, you know, in your case. How else would you have become a vegan at 14 or 15? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Vegan is the craziest one to watch the rise. Absolutely. It's insane. It's insane. Like, I can't. I just remember my parents just thinking I was a total psycho. And now it's a house. It's truly a house. It was a word that people couldn't pronounce at a point. Oh, yeah. I remember people betting me. money in school about how I was pronouncing the word wrong. And because it wasn't in the dictionary at the time, I couldn't prove to them that this guy yelling the word on an album was the correct way. No, dude, trust me. Earth Crisis knows, man. Trust me. Atlanta was strangely so vegan-friendly, more than any other city that I can remember, besides maybe Philadelphia growing up. Every time I went to Atlanta, everyone

Yeah, it was a big part of this scene in Atlanta, for sure. And I think that, I mean, Atlanta, I've learned as I've lived in New York for 11 years, but I grew up there. So I've learned two things. It was very vegan in the hardcore scene. And people do a lot of coke, I also learned later in life. So I mean, which both kind of go together in a weird way, maybe the same person. How do those things go together, by the way? I can relate to that. Yeah, I think. Yeah, we all can relate to that on this podcast, my friend. What was the name of that Chinese restaurant that everyone would go to after shows? It was open late night. They sort of had the family style. Harmony. Harmony. Okay. My parents live 15 minutes from there. I still go there every time I go home. Yeah, the place is great. It's still there. But those little places, I mean, you know, that's what you learn touring for sure. There's that. There's one of those, at least in most major cities at the time, there's one of those. I think now it's a different landscape. Are you vegan now? Yeah. Okay. So you guys obviously know where all the spots are. Yeah. And even when I wasn't vegan, you know, when I was just like vegetarian. a long time ago. I mean, those were like the spots you'd go to all the time. You know, what is your favorite in LA? I want to hear Jason's a big food guy. So I want to hear, I want to hear what you think. I mean, I don't know. You know, it just depends. Like I really like, I like the German restaurant in Hinterhof. Have you, have you been there? Um, that that's in Highland park. Yeah. I I've, I've, uh, I've driven past it, but I have not been inside. It's cool. I like it just cause it's different. Our friend owns a restaurant in Echo Park called Masa, which is not a vegan restaurant, but they have a vegan menu that is exceptional. That's the deep dish pizza place. Yeah, they have a vegan deep dish. It's pretty crazy. See, I have a tough time with vegan cheese. This is a different vegan cheese. This motherfucker is innovating. When you say tough time, do you mean with the flavor or the way it affects your body or both? Everything about it.

I just don't. It's the same way I feel about Beyond. I don't like it. It doesn't agree with my body. Don't eat it. Don't eat it, dumb shit. Sage advice. Thank you for that. As barbecue season approaches, I needed a voice of reason. I guess it is crazy to go from that where we had to learn about veganism from brochures that we would get. When we go out to places and now the most trending New York Times article of the week is an article about how everyone needs to go vegan or else the earth is going to die. The earth is going to die anyway. But it is. It's really crazy. I don't know. When Beyonce did the challenge, I was really spun out. But now I've come to terms with the popularity. I've come to terms with the popularity. But eating vegan in LA is probably, I would say, the best place to do it, maybe. I don't know about globally, but... It probably is, yeah. It probably is. Yeah. I mean, even just Ethiopian food alone, that shit is hitting. That's true. Very, very true. And the publishing stuff that you're doing, I know that that's a pretty big part of the... business almost if we're going to put it that way but i mean publishing books is i've done it myself and it's very difficult and and time consuming um yeah but again is it the same kind of thing with music where it's just like it's easier and better for you to do it you'd like it and you have a more direct connection with the audience exactly like i think in both situations of music and publishing i'm not opposed to working with someone else but i don't want to do it unless it's worthwhile so it's like um Putting out a book of mine or a friend, I know that I can sell a few thousand through my own website, right? Or I have to talk to all these people, go through distribution channels, learn things by people to maybe sell a few more but make it less profitable for the author and for a headache and just something to keep up with. I like to put out the books.

have them go to the people who want them and move on to something else as opposed to... Because it's sort of a one-person operation, I can't dedicate all my time to promoting, keeping up with the trail that those things seem to create. So that's it, really. Of course, I think both... both mediums should have larger audiences, but they have grown in their own way and they've done so without having to really sacrifice too much. Well, I mean, I think you've created basically like a creative ecosystem for yourself is what it feels like to me, where it's like, I can do this from top to bottom and control all of it, which is basically impossible if you involve anyone else and especially if you involve anyone else's money. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's still moving. it's still something i'm into nothing nothing in my life i've ever done uh with with a goal or even consideration of will this will this break even or make money um everything i've done has been really out of the labor of love so much that the first two bands i did never made any money and it didn't doesn't matter to me i never even recently i found old um like tor journals where I had guarantees written down and I never even knew what those were. If we got them, nothing. It was just all I ever wanted to do was participate in things that I thought were cool and inspiring to me and sort of add to the lineage of things that influenced and saved my life. So that's all I've done and I think just being... a bit overly devoted to it has allowed for some uh for time to keep continuing yeah what do you um what do you what do you think the psychology is behind kind of wanting to have control over all all the steps of that process you know down to you know shipping and and everything uh you know really it's just been a matter of

And I do have friends that help with mail order occasionally, but really it's sort of just, I don't have the patience to dedicate to teaching someone how to do it who might be gone in a few months, you know? So it's just like, I'd rather just spend my time doing it, doing it right, as opposed to relying on someone else. You a Virgo, Wes? I'm an Aquarius. Damn. Wait, Wes, how tall are you? I'm 6'2". Hell yeah. We like to have only tall guys on the podcast. I just wanted to make sure you made the height requirement. I was saying that because the traits that you were speaking of, I could relate to a lot of those as well. It's been something that I've been trying to change in my life versus embrace. The phrase, faster alone but further together is something i try to remind myself of um as i try to do everything myself yeah i mean if you find the right partner then great you know i've had plenty of bad partners and i found one good partner in my life and I just do everything myself because I want all the credit. I have tons of great people around me that I trust. It's not about quality of work. It's fully about credit. Credit is the one thing I don't really care about. Strangely, it's more just like I don't want to be annoyed. I don't want the confrontation of like... cluing someone into them not doing something so you're basically you don't want to tell somebody that they're whack i understand i think we can all relate on that right i'll relate on that but i do think the need for credit is i talk about that a lot with my work because i just think that that's what happens in a lot of like corporate settings is like it's everybody's like jockeying for credit versus trying to just have the best final product and the product usually the product usually suffers

Yeah, because everyone is afraid of getting fired or let go at any given moment now. Especially now, for sure. You're saying American Nightmare never made money, but when you guys reunited, you've been making money, right? Yeah, I mean, it's great. But it's certainly not for... I think I can speak for everyone. It doesn't really play into... anyone's drive into doing that it's not like you know with cold cave it's my projects like that's lucrative when american nightmare is being divided five and a half ways so it's like it's not like that it's not that great yeah even if you make a have a nice guarantee for a reunion show by the time everyone gets paid and your expenses and travel and blah blah blah you know exactly it's less than i would probably make during my own time it ain't no steve aoki money No. No, it's not, Jason. I have this whole thing where I think it's important for bands that were very popular in their small worlds to be able to reunite and make money later down the line. I think it's retroactive almost. Sure. In a way, yeah, because it grows. But are you finding new fans? Because I feel like for us, it was like a Revelation Records band or whatever would be the band that somebody would turn you on to. So I think for a younger generation, American Nightmare could be that kind of band. It's like that. When I go see a band like Youth of Today or something or some rap band, it's like there's people older than me. There's me and my friends who were too young to see them the first time. And then there's people way younger than us. It's similar in a way, except mine is 10 years, you know? Shit, that's it. Man, time really flies, guys. You know, I also know you're a real Rick head. Well done. Well documented leather jacket wearer. Chris, Rick who? Rick Owens. And, you know, I'm...

I work in the I work in the fashion industry and Rick Owens and Michelle are people that are come up a lot. And I really love them as people and as like an entity. I think it's really important to exist, but I can't pull off the clothes, you know, so I I have to look at it from afar. But I feel like you've really is that number one for you? Have you like built your look around that or was we leading all black and then you found Rick? I was leaning more that way. I don't wear only Rick. I'm head to toe in Rick right now, including socks and underwear. Damn, wow, what a flex. There's a certain group of our listeners that are going to really appreciate that quote you just gave. You're like, all right, I'm going to go do a podcast. I better put on my Rick underwear. I got to put on my whole Rick sweatsuit to sit alone. So basically all you needed to do was get a little bag and get your Rick money stepped up and now you can drip yourself out accordingly. Exactly. Kind of. You were ricking in your mind well before your closet was lined with nothing but Owens. It's more like I don't like mixing designers when I dress. What a purist. It just so happens that Rick fits me and goes together and is the most versatile for different occasions. There are other designers I like equally as much, but it's not an everyday sort of thing. So I work with Tom Brown, which is also a uniform vibe, and I cannot wear it separately. I totally can relate. I cannot wear the jacket or the pants. I have to wear the full suit together with the whole thing on, or does it feel right? Yeah, if I start mixing, I have to just go, overboard with it. Weird boots, weird hat, weird jacket, weird shirt, leather pants. It's got to be fucked up looking. It just doesn't work any other way. Are you a leather pants daddy? I guess by definition, yeah. Just answer the question, Wesley. This is a deposition now. I recently wrote about for GQ about wearing leather pants for the first time.

And I got to say, I really enjoyed the experience. But people didn't notice as much as I thought they would. Well, when did this happen? I mean, certainly 10 years ago, it was different than more recent. Yeah, no, this was recent. This was like in the last six months. But I just think that they're having a little bit of a moment in a different way as far as like proper fashion versus like counterculture uniform. You know what I mean? And I felt a little. It felt a little stage-closey for me, but I was surprised how they kind of blended in jeans to most people. Yeah, I think the popularity of heavily waxed jeans sort of just, you know, people get a similar effect without having to suffer. Yeah, suffer or admit they're wearing leather pants. It's a bold thing to wear leather pants. You have to admit it. You have to own it. And, you know, you have to be prepared to probably fight for them. Yes. I felt, well, I was in, I was in Berlin over the summer and a friend, a friend of mine was going to take me to the fetish store to get a custom pair made, which is my dream. Cause I want them to fit just like 501s, you know? Um, but that, that I didn't have time and it's, it's been a tough search, but I haven't been able to find the pair that could really, you know, add into my repertoire. Yeah. I have two pair left and they're both older. Like I have a, pair of Rick leather pants from, I think they're from like 2008 or 2009, but they're like sort of Detroit cut. They just fit perfect still. And I have an Emma Cross pair that I like also, but they're a little looser. I've had other pairs that just didn't work. Look, it's a lifelong search, really. Well, it's also about the journey and not the destination. You're never going to find the perfect pair of letters. That's really true. It's about the fashionista friends that you make along the way. That's true. What do you do with your old clothes? Are you on the reselling market? Do you hoard them all forever? I'm not really in the reselling market. There's a few things I've resold. I find it a bit tedious and I don't like people's questions.

As a shipping God, I figured you would just throw it in the pile and it would be no problem. I find it like I get offended when people want to verify that it's real and I just want to be like, as if. You know who you're talking to? You are above – you've worked too hard and you've lived long enough to where you should not have to deal with those petty interactions. I mean a grailed lowball – the idea of you responding to a grailed lowball off of Rick Owens is pretty funny to think about, I have to say. Can you train your kid to do this yet? Yes. Let's get you a job. Well, I throw things out a lot. I give things to friends. I really throw things out. I throw a lot of Rick away. Damn, Jason, do you hear that? Must be nice, dude. Must be fucking nice. So that's your anti-drug? Yeah. You've given up on pills and coke, and now you get high and probably hard off of watching Rick Owens go into the fucking recycling bin and see the claw grab the can and dump it into the back of the truck. That's called real power. That is power. That's a journey. Do you get stage clothes made or do you just buy stuff and wear it? I've done both. I don't really have any stage clothes that are different than what I would wear. It just depends. I typically don't have things made for me. I have, but I don't. I'm really into custom-made clothes, but I haven't really gotten too deep into it. I feel like it's the final frontier. It just depends. I sort of approach designers in the same way that I approach music. I have to really like this band or this person to want to rep it now. I don't have anyone in my life that is a custom designer that would be up your street.

Yeah, it's like, you know, I have to really believe in it to want to invest in it and wear it every day. No, that makes sense. Uniform dressing, it makes life easier, but it's a little hard on the wallet, you know? Yeah, it is. But I think if you ignore or just remember all the things you spent money on that don't really matter to you and that are culturally cheaply made and trashed, then... it all kind of equals out i think but you like did you like clothes growing up like in the hardcore days were you buying clothes i did i always bought a lot of t-shirts you know i didn't know i didn't my my weight fluctuated a lot because i have like you know dealt with serious depression on my whole life so it's like i could never really dress the way i wanted to until i was a little older and figured it out you know yeah what uh at what age did you stop or did you did you have a body transformation i guess Um, probably like after, after I quit American nightmare, I slimmed down a lot. Um, I was, I was really skinny all through, all through high school. Then I went to college for a couple of years and just was, it was hell. And then, uh, I just was depressed and do anything, just stayed home, didn't exercise, had no movement, just ate. And then, uh, that carried over into American nightmare where, you know, I had some, some version of depression, anxiety. I drank a lot on those tours. And, you know, the only movement I had really was while I played a set, which maybe lasted for 12 minutes. And then back to fall asleep in the van. It was really, you know, I moved out of Boston. I moved to California, started eating better, became vegetarian. It's hard to be fat in San Diego, I've found. It's a bad look, yes. There's a lot of frisbee to be thrown down there. All my roommates there were vegan, and it just sort of became easy. I started walking a lot and riding a bicycle. So you would say it was a direct correlation to depression or not being depressed?

To Boston, yeah. Yeah, Boston will make you fat. You're going to get in a fight and get fat if you live in Boston. I think that's a fair, I think it's a fair judgment. I mean, wearing, when clothes look good on you, it makes much more fun to buy them. Because I've always liked clothes too, but like, you know, when the Fred Perry's in XL and you're 15, it doesn't hit the same. You know what I mean? It's a little easier. uh, to enjoy the process when the clothes look better on you, or at least you think they look better on you. Yeah. I mean, it's the best accessory for, for clothing. How do you, how do you, I don't, I mean, LA gets hot though. How do you, do you just fucking suffer through with the, with the gear and just like the all black, you just power through. You know, Rick makes flip flops. That's true. I have them. He's like, I got the Birkenstocks on right now. It's my house here. I do. I do have a pair of them. I don't really mind the weather. I grew up always wearing lots of clothing, jackets. So suffering is not something that is new to me or bothers me anymore. So you're a year-round jacket guy? Kind of, yeah. I love it. I love it. I mean, jackets are probably the best piece of clothing, I would say, as far as what I'm going to get most excited about. Oh, definitely. That's all you need. I get excited about shorts. That's all. Jason, he's not giving you the full story. He's very tall, so pants are hard for him. How tall are you? 6'9". Wow. It's fine. I hate that it has to impact your wardrobe, but I do think that you've embraced shorts and kind of made it your look. Yeah, I mean, it's fun to have a little challenge. Get out of your comfort zone. Wes, what's your workout kit looking like, though? What's a kit? Like your gear. Is it all black, dry fit? Are we wearing old hardcore shirts and Patagonias? What are we wearing? Right now, I'm wearing the Rick Chandler. Oh, no. I'm not doing an outfit check. I'm saying when you work out. Yeah, yeah. I'm telling you.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Damn, I'm sorry. I'm falling. Try and keep up, Chris. It's like this every day, baby. I like some of the Rake Champion. Yeah, I like those shorts. They're kind of short, right? They're short. They're mesh. They're see-through. I got takeout the other day and forgot that they were see-through and I wasn't wearing anything else. It was just like... I'm just going to do it and see if this goes okay. It was fine. So Dick Owens was okay. Yeah, Dick really out here. But I usually wear an old band t-shirt and Rick shorts, probably some Rick shoes. My hair is long now, so I have to wear a hat, which is new for me, to keep the hair off the face while sweating. So you have some real Rick dedication. To work out in Rick's shoes when Nike and Hoka and all these other performance fitness shoes exist. Well done. Thanks. Those were foreign words to me. I don't know what they are. That's pretty cool that you've lived this long and you don't know what Nike is. I'm pretty impressed. Real off the grid shit. I had no idea. We had another dad. We had a few dads on the podcast, but are you a teacher now during quarantine or is your son not that age? My son is four and a half, but we weren't going to put him in school anyway. Again, it's like everything we do is kind of... along what's happening now anyway. You're saying, are you going to homeschool or are you just going to... Well, it's called unschooling is what we do. Oh, please go further into this. You just don't do anything until they have interest in something, basically. You know? And is there like an age on this or no? I mean, there's... Yeah, it starts...

It gets started when he was born, I guess. Okay, I understand. So you're saying once he shows interest in something, then you will teach him that thing? Yes. Yeah, but there's no schedules. We're not doing... I read to him. We play music. He's been to Russia three times, Europe five times, China twice. What kind of music is he into? Is he feeling what you're putting down? Yeah, it's a mix between he likes the Ramones, Billy Idol, more like cartoony sort of music, you know? Yeah. Billy Idol, Ramones, some movie soundtracks, you know? Really thought you were going to say Eilish there, but yeah. Yeah, me too. She was actually unschooled. She's one of the people we found out about. I've never heard of this, actually. Is this a pretty popular thing? It's not pretty popular, but it's not obscure either. Maybe it is obscure. There's a lot of religious angles to it, which we don't fall under. Specific religious angles or just religious in general, like as a blanket? I think people who don't want their children in schools that might... Secular. Yeah, that might challenge anything that they're being taught at home or whatever. I see, okay. They might learn about evolution in the school. Exactly, something problematic like that. We can't have that. Basically, our thing is a little simpler. It's just that neither Amy or I cared for school, nor do we think that we learned. anything in school really um you know she's a she's a philosophy major from ucla i'm a college dropout i never did one thing in school ever in my life and i feel like she feels similar um and you know should he show interest and want to pursue something of course we will facilitate that but otherwise

California is one of the few states where you don't have to go to school. You don't have to have a formal homeschool program either. Oh, I didn't know that. I forget about the legal implications. California, New York, and Kansas, I think, are the three states. Is there an average age when the interest showing becomes facilitated? Obviously, he could have an interest in fire trucks at age three, but you're not going to put him through firefighter school. But at a certain age when he's developed an interest in something that is actually pursuable, what age do you think that is? It just depends. I mean, who knows? I mean, he'll come to me and say, how do I spell this? I'll show him. And we move on to something else. Great. What do you think about the – I mean, I sort of agree with you on school. I didn't really – learn much of anything and, and never really had an interest in it. But I, as I've gotten older, I found that like the social aspect of it, of, of interacting with other people who are like you and not like you and, you know, being hurt and hurting people and learning things was more of the important part. What do you, how do you plan on navigating the social side of things? Um, I feel it's overrated. Socializing is overrated. Okay, fair enough. I feel it's overrated. It's not someone that is going to be locked away. I feel like my social interactions in school didn't shape me. I feel like there are other ways to have those experiences without having to be... told what to do for 68 hours a day by someone probably not smarter than you. That's true. That's true. And it's always there. It's always an option. I don't know. I think it's overrated. I think socializing is overrated. I'm here for it. I love socializing, but I still think it could be overrated.

well i think in a in a forced situation you know i mean i think i learned i mean for sure i mean i dropped out of high school and i all i cared about was my older friends that i met through hardcore for sure that was like my entire life i didn't i don't think i had many social experiences at school that were important my yeah i don't either like i i played sports i didn't try i played soccer rather i i didn't like i had totally terrible, disinterested attitude. And as a result of that, they would put me in gifted classes for not caring. And then I would never do homework. I never studied for a test. I just felt these things sort of, I was only interested in music and I somehow passed and did fine without ever applying myself into those, you know, worlds that I haven't regretted not learning than today, you know? So. I don't know. I think everyone has hope for their child. They want them to have a spectacular life. I'm sure there's a part of that where we want him to enjoy his moment in time here without having to succumb to, I don't know, I guess as a blanket term, bureaucracy, you know, until it's necessary. Was this a decision you guys made before he was born? I think, yeah, for sure. we were mostly interested in that approach. He sleeps in our bed with us still. He has a room. We don't really use it. He just goes on tour with us, hangs out, is friends with our friends. He has other children he talks to. I think being based here, there are a lot of children who aren't also in full-time school because their parents travel a lot or whatever. I don't know. I hope for something better for him than the misery that I feel I had in school. I get it. Well, it's very exciting, and I'm sure it's going to be a thing that increases and becomes a lot more popular soon. Yes, strangely. Strangely, it seems it wasn't a bad choice.

Yeah, I guess living your unique independent lifestyle ended up kind of being a great investment into your future in our current quarantine pandemic life. Yeah. So well done. Now that all these idiots are doing it. What's next? Your apocalyptic output on life has served you well. Yeah, exactly. thank you so much for joining us. It was great to chat with you. My pleasure. I didn't, I didn't, I had no idea that either of you were of, of the ilk of hardcore or anything like that at all. I didn't know that. Oh yeah. I mean, I, I, yeah, I mean, part of it was, I mean, I've, I've obviously listened to music for years and I mean, I have the American nightmare demo tape somewhere, but the, the, yeah, we'll both fight you right now, bro. Yeah. I'll get, I'll prove to you. I don't give a fuck. I don't believe you, but... But when I followed you on Instagram and started seeing you doing the AMAs, which I think are really cool, and I think that your audience really likes it, but that was like, all right, let me get in touch and see if we'll come on the show, because I just think there's a lot to talk about. Well, I appreciate it. I hope it wasn't... A huge disappointment like everything else that's going on. No, no, no. This is a bright spot in the day. And also, thank you for putting me on to Choir Boy. Really fucking with that record. Oh, yeah. Great band. Great band. Great record. I really like that record a lot. And, well, tell people where they can find you on the internet. You can find me a few different places. Some kind of comms would be Wesley Eiffel, Cold Cave, American Nightmare. I'll, um... Whatever. You know, it's just people. I don't know. Yeah, there we go. That's my favorite answer. And if you see anything on Grailed from Cold Cave, don't lowball. There's a sentence, really. All right. Thanks again, Wes. We'll talk to you later, bro. Thank you. Take care. Later.