460. - Michael Hainey

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Chris Black. I'm here. Jason Stewart is also here. We've already built IRL this beautiful rainy morning in Los Angeles. Just a quick uh you know tv meeting over here in beautiful hollywood it was cool i was hanging out in hollywood i drove 45 minutes in a ice rain storm pulled up to a macchiato that was much smaller than i was hoping it was going to be it was a dainty little thing but uh i'm back and home safe and sound the sun's even coming out i'm feeling good how are you chris i'm a little hungover from last night and the meeting that we had today there was a great story about a wedding and an elephant. Yeah, we can get into all. I mean, so last night, uh, Jason and I were able to link with friends of the show, um, local sandwich and graffiti legend, uncle Paulie and, uh, Wilmot proprietor of, of, uh, known watering hole Gigi's, uh, for a big night on the town at a, a restaurant that I don't know about you, Jason, but I didn't, I didn't have this on my bingo card. No, it's not the kind of restaurant that is really into my type of folk, but, We went to Catch Steak. I haven't been to the original Catch. You said that you liked it, but I have not. But Catch Steak over in Melrose Place. It was definitely one of those ritzy, dry ice.

truffle kind of vibe that's a little over the top and extravagant but everything that we ate was was bomb i was into it the experience was good um the paparazzi did not recognize us unfortunately even though jason had 14 cigarettes outside trying to get noticed um you could pass for an nba player at catch steak keep it moving big fellas what they kept telling me I kept asking them, like, what kind of flash is that? And they weren't really feeling it at all. Yeah, I mean, we got the full tour of the facility. It's a really impressive operation, I have to say. And the food was great. I want to talk about that pretzel bread because that's something else right there. That's something else. Mini round pretzels with a butter that combined the flavors of mustard with the flavor. of butter that we you know something two things we recognize independently but when combined it was kind of a it was a a butter i guess it was a whole grain mustard honey butter it was because it had it had the sweetness to it as well that's a naughty little treat i found myself slathering a little too much even though i'm trying to keep it whole 30 hashtag I did have to slurp down one of those tiny pretzels and it was definitely yummy. Very good. Bomb ass steak, bomb ass waffle fries. They blessed us with a couple 1942 shots just because we're baller. The only downside I had, the Caesar. was deconstructed, which is never, but otherwise, yummy, yummy. I understand that. But yeah, I mean, Jason, I know you're worn out from all the driving. You went back and forth to WeHo twice yesterday, and I do apologize for that, but when we're trying to embark on our Hollywood journey, it's kind of crazy that that actually takes place in Hollywood, wouldn't you say? I'm saying I'm kind of surprised, you know, because I think for some of us, you know, for someone like you that has long COVID, maybe it should happen over Zoom. But you're lucky. You're kind of venturing out. And I know the driving isn't great. You're coming at me for long COVID, Chris? Oh, no, no, no. No, I don't. I just I have a lot of problems. Do you know how many of your COVID coughs I edit out every episode? That's from my single that's from my single Hestia after dinner. But yeah, I mean, it doesn't help.

But I think that now when you're transversing the Los Angeles area in your certified pre-owned Mercedes, what... Are you using this time wisely to collect your thoughts? Are you listening to some of your ambient music? Are you listening to other podcasts? The answer is yes, dumbass. Yeah, I'm doing all of that. Okay, so you're mixing up between music, podcasts, as well as staring out the window? Yeah, a lot of reflective time. I'll use that time to work on some breathing, some Huberman-style diaphragmatic breathing. That's good. That's nice. I might as well work on my obliques and my 12-pack while I'm driving if I'm going to do it. Of course. There's no reason not to. That'd be crazy not to. No reason not to. But it's all just kind of like a mental thing that you can turn on and off after a while once you kind of train yourself to do it where you're like, okay, well, this sucks. I just have to sit in awful traffic, construction everywhere, rain, blah, blah, blah, bullshit. I can let it ruin my time or I can just sort of go. blank mode and just uh act as if i'm driving in some cool video game or whatever just do a mental thing and then usually i will pass the time by doing a speed run just to you know see if i can make beat my personal record or something so you are treating it like a video game you're you're speeding you're risking the lives of other motorists never never oh okay okay okay okay i just i wanted to make sure because we we went to um we also had a lunch yesterday a business meeting uh with a with a friend and and maybe future colleague jonathan and he you know he invited us to um at the Fred Siegel store on Santa Monica. Where Vinny Chase would die. And I've been there before, actually, with another friend of the show, Harley and Jonathan. These guys grew up in LA. They go here all the time. And the crowd is one of the most twisted mixes that you can find in Los Angeles, where it's like five...

Albanian murderer drug dealers wearing Montclair. And then Jesse Andrews. Jesse Andrews and then a 60-year-old Hollywood executive that has one foot in the grave. And then some Russian prostitutes with a screenwriter. It's just really... Yeah, the table sitting behind me had... They were literally signing and filling out a Netflix contract. The next table over, I took a photo of somebody's quinoa salad, which has now gone viral in my DMs. I have about 100 replies to it, mostly from the IBS community asking for a trigger warning next time they see that much quinoa in one place. It was a fat-ass plate of quinoa. I wanted to talk about, because you mentioned your Whole30 diet. Obviously, this was a great room. It was electric. But Jason ordered something that we've been talking about on this podcast because he saw it on the menu. And when he ordered it, he let out one of his signature TJ giggles right after he placed the order. But you ordered steak and eggs for lunch. That's not why I let out a giggle. I let out a giggle because I ordered a steak and eggs in my side. was fruit fruit so i mean i've never had a plate that had banana touching the steak before okay yeah that's a good that was maybe a bridge too far even for me that's that's that's a good that's a good one that's a good one but but when you think about it it's like you know you can eat like a veggie sandwich or like an avocado something or you know whatever it is something light but i mean just a small piece of grass-fed steak that's grilled with a couple scrambled eggs and some some bananas and berries, like I'll eat that all day long and feel great. So it was a good, it was a good, it was a good experience. It was a good experience to have steak and eggs at lunch. Okay. I just, cause this is something, you know, I ask, I asked the question who the fuck orders this and you ordered it and it didn't, it seemed a little bit crazy. It did. I think the stigma of, of steak and eggs being like this fat, fat man, lumberjack truck driver kind of meal.

is sort of old hat nowadays now that you know protein is dope and carbs and stuff are not as dope you know that i think it's like abnormal and chill thing to do nowadays okay and maybe the healthiest option you can have and while we were in west hollywood we also we went to community goods the new um maru killer um over here in in weho and jason you you tried this this drink they have there that's off menu that's a combination of matcha Espresso. What did he say? It was called a Joe's Special? I think somebody else called it a Volcano. I don't know what the name is. Joe versus the Volcano? I don't know. I know it's off-menu, and it more or less is a matcha latte that also has a shot of espresso in it. A little bit of vanilla syrup in there as well, which I usually don't dabble in the world of syrups, but... It's a treat. I need it. Since matcha's so fucking nasty, you kind of need it. Yeah, matcha's pretty... No offense, Rocky. You didn't invent it. You only perfected it. Matcha is pretty bad. It's kind of crazy how popular it is. I think people just like it because it's green and it looks cool on Instagram. Like, it doesn't actually taste that good no matter how much oat milk you pour in it. Like, coffee is obviously a distinct flavor, but I feel like it, I don't know. I think matcha is a very challenging flavor. It can be delicious, but the degree of difficulty is tough compared to, you know, like... chocolate and peanut butter you know like it's just always good yeah yeah yeah no no you're right you're right i i but i this this combination um at community goods it's also i've had it before at this uh coffee shop in chicago that has a supreme punching bag in it for when you want to stare a cause doll straight in the eyes at 5 45 a.m i'm actually finishing my community goods here it's swirling around right now it's This shit was so loud that I could not drink at all. I had, like, one sip, and I was like, oh, I need a fucking perk just to mellow out. I took it home. Bae took a sip. She's like, this shit is fucking smacking. And, like, it's like a small, you know, cup.

Between two people, we're still nursing it. That's crazy. I finished that off quick. That's one slurp for Big Chris. It ain't nothing to slurp. I know. We're aware of your gawk-gawk style slurping, Chris. That's true. It's no secret. It's no secret. But, yeah, we've had a lot of big adventures, and we're gearing up for another. How Long Gone Outing on Friday. Yeah, can we talk about it? Sure. I mean, it requires a little more dressing effort. It's the W Magazine Best Performances Party at the Chateau Marmont. I don't know. I don't have a confirmed tip sheet. I don't know who's going to be in the building since we're going as guests. I only have one name. Who is that? That was one of the shouts or murmurs that I heard at the watering hole. I think this is going to be fun for us, and I'm worried about your outfit. Mm-hmm. I know in these situations, if left to your own devices, you can get a little experimental. And I just don't – I can't have you go in full Kalina Strada for this. It's more of a – I leave your frog after effects at home. But I feel like you – I just want to kind of just get in your head now. Try to keep it – as trad as you can um just kind of a classic you look great in a suit we all know it it's kind of your stage try to keep it as trad as possible i just mean i just mean let's not this is not a this is this isn't an evening for your yeezys or maybe some other things that i've heard whispers of i just i don't plan to wear my yeezys at all chris but also You know, I want to look nice and respectful and everything. And, you know, to show my love to the WMAG family. And I don't want Brad Pitt to look at me with disgust. But also, I have to be me. No, you're right. I have to be unapologetically TJ. I know, you have to be unapologetically TJ. And I love that for you. But you love that for me, but you don't love that for us.

is what it sounds like i just don't know yeah i just don't know who's gonna be there who we're gonna meet you know what i mean i don't want to embarrass embarrass our hostess sarah you know i just want to make sure that that things are kind of buttoned up right right right well i mean it's not it's not like i'm gonna wear a fucking mad happy tie-dye hoodie and you know like i'm gonna you're gonna be dressed i no that's true you're always dressed i and that's what i love about you and as i as i told you guys earlier and you guys meaning every person in my life apparently because uh i've already had this conversation a lot you know i'm not i'm not married to my look and if if i do believe that it's not going to work then i'm i'm absolutely okay with pulling the uh abort switch and moving on to a more Trad look. Okay, good. That being said, do you have your trad look worked out, Chris? I'm picking it up from the dry cleaners. Do you have your white shirt and black suit and black shoes worked out? I don't wear black suits, really, but thank you for asking. We do have a guest today. This motherfucker. I'm more of a Navy guy. Our friend of the show, Michael Haney, he's... a writer at large at the wonderful air airmail weekly corporation. Is he a writer and an editor and a, yeah, he's a deputy editor. I want to know what the fuck that means. We'll, we'll figure it. We'll figure it out. Um, he was also, uh, he was at GQ for a long time in the original gradient vehicle spy magazine, the legendary, uh, he has a great book called after visiting friends, a son's story. Uh, and he's also flexing on us hard today, coming to us live from Roma. So we can find out how much pasta he's had just today. All right, let's give Haney a Zoom and see how our Roman Wi-Fi is working. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down.

The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. Head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Yeah, I recorded in this thing called Audio Hijack. Do you know it? I do know what that is, actually. I'm old enough to know what Audio Hijack is. Hold on, Michael. What is Audio Hijack? I'm not familiar. It's what my producer tells me to use, bro. Okay, Michael Haney, I think that's a good place to start off the show. You immediately said the word bro, which I don't think is a thing that comes out of your mouth on podcasts too often. Am I correct in saying that? No, it's like I can't say bro. I don't say dude. You've had to edit. The freaks over at Airmail kind of police your language, and you've had to kind of tone down. You're able to let your hair down with a couple of fellas like us.

You go into a different club, you talk differently. That's all. You're absolutely right, Michael. When I go to the Yale club, I do act differently. Otherwise, they would kick me out. Michael, how would you describe the club of how long gone? Well, I can tell the listeners that what they don't know is I thought I was supposed to be on this show about a month ago when I was in South Bend, Indiana, of all fucking places. I just want these guys to know, I log in on the Zoom, and these guys are chatting away. And then, like, Jason's like, what the fuck is Michael Haney doing here? And it's like, dude, it's not my problem your software can be hacked by any Chinese guy. So it's like the door was open. I came in. What do you want me to do? Sure. I mean, it was shocking. So all I'm saying is, like, you guys better get some, you know, antivirus. I don't know. Because anyone, it seems, can, like, get on this show all the time. So what happened, guys? What happened? We do have an open-door policy on our Zoom account. Yeah, that is true. What happened was Michael got the date incorrect and barged into one of our famous How Long Gone intros without any knowledge on our side and, of course, without warning. Caught us without our knickers on, to be honest. I was like some guy at a house party, like, what's in this room? And it was like, dude. That was the vibe. That was the vibe. You caught two people. Whoa, cool. Yeah, you caught two people having sex in the how long gone zoom. Two people on Spotify just going the fuck out. But it was funny because I told you this via email later. And in three years of doing this podcast, that has never happened one time, which is kind of. when I think about it because we've had a lot of guests who aren't as bright as you or maybe experienced. So for you to make that error felt poetic. That's a compliment, I guess, but I guess I would say like... Oh, it's not. It's not. No, it is. I think what Chris is saying, we didn't really realize that, because you're a cool, calm, collected guy who's been around.

for a minute, you've seen it all, you've done it all, and usually your type of personality is not one that would get so excited to do How Long Gone that you will jump on and try to bust into an episode a full month in advance. Exactly. It seems, yeah, it just seems crazy, that's all. You seem like the type of fellow that could keep it in their pants for a while, that's all. You know, I just want to point out, as I noted on this week's episode of Morning Meeting, the airmail, It is the 40th anniversary of the release of the Martin Scorsese film about Rupert Pupkin. If you've never seen it, it's about a man who clearly wants to be famous and takes Jerry Lewis hostage. Have you guys ever seen that? What's it called? Hold on. I don't even know who Pupkin is. I've only seen Paul Blart, Mall Cop. I think Marty did that one, too. Oh, are you talking about The King of Comedy? The King of Comedy, yes, that's the one. 82? 83, yeah. If you want to argue with IMDb, you can be my guest. But it is 1982. Robert Pumpkin is a passionate yet unsuccessful comic who craves nothing more than to be in the spotlight and to achieve this. He stalks and kidnaps his idol, Jerry Lewis. What a great... See? I've never seen it. Maybe I have seen it. And this is De Niro before he goes all crappy, right? So he's coming right off of Taxi Driver, blah, blah, blah. Before he goes, yeah, so he had already done Raging Bull, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver. He already had the big ones out of the, you know. Well, you know, he did Goodfellas, Cape Fear Casino afterwards. But my point is, I am not shifty. I got so nervous for that show. You made me take a Xanax. I wasted a Xanax that day to get on the show. I wasted a fucking Xanax. Damn. I wasted a Xanax on you, bro. I've always wanted somebody to say that to me. I mean, Michael, look, I mean, I feel like you were coming to us that day when you barged in from South Bend at your alma mater, Notre Dame.

And I feel like maybe the Xanax was because you were feeling some, you know, that can bring up intense feelings being back in college like that. And I don't know what you were like in college, but I assume there's some maturity that's happened since. I feel like I'm being led into a minefield, but yeah, there's been some maturity happening, unless you're going to bring up a dossier on me right now. No, no, no, no, we don't. We don't do that. We're not that kind of podcast. We don't even know what the word dossier means. What position did you play at Notre Dame? Left out. Left out. Wow, that's the best answer. Damn. You are good. He's a surgeon. Well done. I do two shows a night here, guys. Really, come back anytime. You'll love Missouri. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. It's nice to dance with a pro. The Notre Dame thing is interesting to me because I feel like it's such a beautiful campus and so historic and there's such a nice history there. And is it a fun place to go to school or is it more like... Not when I was there. I don't know. The reason I was at Notre Dame actually was because, you know, small fun fact. Tom Brown went to Notre Dame. He was a class behind me. That's right. I went to Notre Dame. And they're now teaching a class about Tom Brown there. And as part of this, they asked me to come in and do an interview with Tom. And then Tom asked me, I want you to interview me and then come speak to the class. And then we're going back again in April and doing another interview. So I'll just say this. When Tom Brown and I were there. There was no people like us coming to talk there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. And do you think that this is going to kind of lead to a class about you? Is that kind of the hope? Or are you just happy to be happy to be involved? I was just thinking they were going to name the football stadium after me or something. That would be cool. Crypto.com doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well as Haney. It really doesn't. I like the idea of a Notre Dame student complaining to his friend like, I got a big test in Tom Brown tomorrow. I can't go out tonight. I'm sorry, guys. Dude, I know the game is on, but I've got fucking tailoring tomorrow. It's fucking killing me.

Look, you're from Chicago, so Indiana's a quick jump. But I've learned to love Chicago, actually. What do you love about it? I'd like to know that, too. Well, it's just one of those places that I've never really had a friend there. Oh, bro, come here. Bring it in. Come here. Get you some. Come here. Hey, Jason. Hey, it's me. Jason and I have a friend. ben edgar who's from there i just feel like once i finally you know got taken to some spots had some reasons to be there what chris means to say is as soon as he discovered the polo lounge lunch then he was like okay i can get behind chicago now okay that that's true the best part about chicago is the ralph lauren restaurant um and it's uh it's always busy with that perfect white haired kind of well-heeled crowd i'm sure you've spent some lunch hours there you know i'm booth one but yeah i don't like to brag about it danny glover and i have a standing lunch there of course but yeah it's a great it's a great it's one of my favorite things about i guess i just didn't expect it to be there and i discovered that years ago when i would go for work and i would go alone yeah um and now i get to go with friends and sometimes they even pay for the meal so it's it's kind of warmed my heart um To Chicago. But I don't know. Jason and I, we did a show there. I don't know. I've just come around on it a little bit, which is surprising to me as well. Jason, you don't feel the same way? No, no. I've definitely come around on it as well. But it's an uphill battle. So, you know, progress has been made, but we're still not out of the woods yet as it pertains to Chi-Town. But I did want to get back to Xanax. A follow-up question. Do you have any more? Yeah, I got some more. Okay. Is this prescribed? Or is this recreational or a little somewhere in the between? It's prescribed. Okay. I just take a little, you know, like when I get like, I was nervous coming on the show. You guys are. Yeah. But I mean, the thought, I mean, I, and I don't want to make you nervous. I want, I know that this is, it can be a little intimidating for a first timer, but it's nothing but love over here, Haney. But the thought of me, I mean, I love Xanax, but the thought of me taking one before recording a podcast episode.

almost gives me more anxiety because my brain is going to maybe go bye-bye a little bit. Yeah, but you know what? When I was at GQ, I used to have to go on Morning Joe once a month and talk about the issue, right? And again, to go back to like Rupert Pupkin and those kinds of things. Have you ever done live TV? No, actually, I haven't. No, no, no. Maybe a little TRL or something. Yeah, that's true. I've been on TRL, but I wasn't the guest. I was just standing there. He was doing bumps in the bathroom while live TV happened. Yeah, exactly. But no, please, tell us. I would like to hear about this stuff. So this is the thing. My second movie reference I'm going to make tonight is Annie Hall. Remember the scene where Christopher Walken says, like, you know, I just want him driving in the car, and he's going to want to turn it into traffic? It's when you're on a live, and I'd be on Morning Joe, and then, like, you're sitting there and talking, and they're coming out of commercial, and we're live in five, four, three, Michael, ready, and then the camera comes on, right? And there's that split second where you think, I could say anything I want right now. I could say anything I want right now. And, like, meanwhile then, Joe Scarborough's talking. He's, oh, Michael, tell us about, like, you know, you got Christian Bale on the new cover of the issue, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't talk like a 1950s DJ, but anyway. And he says, so I go. And then Mika's over there, you know, adjusting her lipstick and all this. And then you're thinking like, I could just say anything, but you don't. But you have two thoughts in your head going on, and so I wasn't as nervous on that. You could just yell out, George Bush doesn't care about black people on live TV or something like that. I mean, live TV is nerve-wracking, and I'm imagining, like, what's the outfit choosing like for that? Because you want to come off as, you know, you're the boss, you're explaining everything, but you also want to look cool and feel comfortable. So did you kind of stick to a suit-like uniform, or did you try to get experimental sometimes? You know what Chalamet wore when he wore the bib? Yes, exactly. I tried to get that, but it didn't exist yet. Okay, so you were looking for something that didn't exist. You kind of just stuck to a coat and tie. I built a time machine, but I didn't get that. No, I stuck to the suited look. That was back in the suited and booted days. Now you'd have to project a little bit different, I think.

But on the other hand, you've got to stay in your lane too, right? Yeah, of course. You guys have your look. If you were going on there, you wouldn't adjust anything. You'd be like, this is the brand. We have to be unapologetically us, as we said in the intro. We were talking about this in the intro because we're going to the W Magazine Best Performances Party on Friday. It's going to be a heavy room, and just Jason sometimes likes to get experimental with his dressing, and I just don't know if this is the time for it. And he was bucking back at me saying that he has to be him. Are we talking K-I-L-T? No, no. Absolutely not. We actually almost got Jason in a Tom Brown kilt for the San Francisco store opening, but it just didn't fit. I'm a little hippier than you'd assume. Like what? Because he had to strap it down? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But Jason, you were ready to do it. That's what I like about it. You were ready to do it. It just didn't work for you. You were going to commit. Yeah, I'll try anything once in the world of fashion. But the look that I have planned, I don't want to give it away, but it's basically like a simple black suit, but it'll have a T-shirt on underneath it that might be a little, I wouldn't say controversial, but maybe a little unusual. In that situation. How do you feel about. Wearing a t-shirt. Underneath the suit Michael. I can't do it because I have a. I believe my neck looks like a chicken. And so I always have to have a. Okay. But you can rock it. You should do it. Okay. But what is it. Is it. Is it got some like bad. Language on it. No. No. No. Nothing. You know. Nothing problematic or offensive. Whatsoever. Just something that could be seen as maybe. Jason is able to pull things off that shock me often, and it's something I really respect about him. This is just something that could be seen as ironic or not ironic, depending on the viewer. So it's a gamble. It's a gamble. But in my opinion, why do I pander? People who don't get it, why bother pandering to them? The whole point is to exclude them. The whole point is what? To include them? To exclude people who don't understand. That's the whole point of dressing. No, why do you want to dress for some stranger? That's true. From Michael's mouth to God's ears, it is done. When did you stop liking your neck? Was this early? I just always think I'm like... I have a few rules. One of my rules is I never wear a shirt without a collar.

Okay. Never. No. Okay. You feel nude without a collar. Yeah, I feel like a 98-pound weakling without a collar. Would you go down to the curb and pick up your newspaper in a non-collared shirt in the morning? No, I have to be dressed to leave the house. I love this. This is something that I... They don't make them like you no more. That's the thing. I have a few friends that operate like this, and it's really something. that is that requires dedication and i am deeply envious of it because i think it really i don't know just demands respect you know yeah it's it's an interesting trait because it's it's like neither masculine nor feminine it's not gay or straight it's just like a certain type of person that has that internal discipline or whatever that vigilance of how they look and i don't know if it's rooted in fear of of the chicken neck if everyone who's like that Has their own chicken neck scenario that they're hiding behind? It's bigger than the chicken neck. I think it's more of like, you know, to me, it's like, I just can't imagine leaving the house and not looking dressed. And I have nothing against people to do, but like, I would just feel like I look like an escaped mental patient or something, you know? And I think it's also like, you just got to like represent, you know, not, I'm not saying in a snobby way, just like. You know, you get dressed up. You get dressed anywhere, and it doesn't take that much effort and put something out in the world. But I just don't understand people walking down to Citarella at 8.01 in the morning, and they got slippers and, you know, sweatpants. I'm glad that I don't live near you because you would catch me. stumbling through Soho and maybe some shorts with loafers, you know, and a ratty T-shirt. But you look good. Well, thank you. Thank you, Michael. But I think there's a line of like pajama pants and robe. You know, that feels too far, whereas a lot of things don't. I mean, Jason puts on some crazy outfits for his dog walks.

And I believe they work as well because of the, when you put them in context, you know, that's a helpful thing for him. One thing I've noticed as a person who's graduated into somebody who dresses like an adult, once the train starts rolling, you kind of have to keep perpetually doing it. Like once you pull off a few fully put together, executed layered looks that look well, and you feel good and you get that high from it, you kind of have to keep going. You can't really hop off the train and go back to sweatpants and one of Chris's mad happy tees or something. It's like a weird thing that you've got to keep going or else you've got to keep spinning that fashion plate, I guess. Train kept it rolling all night long. Do you ever know this guy, Vincent Gigante? No. He was a mobster here and there in New York City. Okay. Ultimately known as the Chin or the Odd Father, ODD Father. And he was one of the crime bosses in the 70s and 80s. But he walked around the village in pajama and robe every day. And he did this, the feds claimed, to make them think that he was mentally ill. And then he could not be arrested. Okay, so Jason, if that's the case, then Jason's definitely tried this method before, based on some of his outfits. That's really interesting. I definitely have pleading insanity in my future at some point, once I hit a brush with the law. And I think I can kind of pull it off, too. Well, that'll probably involve not wearing pants, but that'll be good. Done and done. It's the Ron Jeremy defense. What are you doing in Rome, by the way? He's an artiste. I am finishing a writer-in-residence at the American Academy in Rome here. Oh, amazing. I know, Fancy Pants. It's this wonderful place in Rome where artists, writers, scholars can come and you can get time here.

uh, some writing, uh, a book and, and, uh, other things. And, um, so they gave me, uh, 30, uh, 30 days and it's been fantastic. So you're living in a Woody Allen movie right now is what it sounds like. Uh, yeah. A little Woody Allen, a little Wes Anderson. Um, it's, uh, it's, it's, and, and, uh, it's, but it's, it's great. It's, it's, it's also what's fascinating about it. It's like, I'm here as like, and a lot of these people, academics, like I just having. coffee every morning with this guy who literally is a medievalist as he studied and he's like his specialty is third century christianity and and yet like i'm like tell me more i can't this is let's let's talk let's and it's yeah of course so in a situation like this um what do you wear oh no no no i i can imagine what you're wearing uh not to be weird but i i guess i i'm saying I'm saying, like, in these situations, I've always been interested in these retreats and how much kind of, like, interaction you're getting with the fellow, you know, the fellow inhabitants or if it's more like a little bit of a solitude journey. And it sounds like it's a little… Great question. Both? And it's perfect here because the reason I came here was you have lunch and dinner with the other residents here. And they make you this, they've got Alice Waters created menu and kitchen. So you get a great, so you don't have to worry about your meals. Then you sit with great people, have, you know, interesting conversations. And then, so you've got that all taken care of. And then like in the afternoon when you're sort of like can't work anymore, you can just wander into Rome. So it's, it's. Unlike those places like McDowell or something where you're just sitting in the woods and becoming The Shining Part 5, or choosing to leave your wife for some 25-year-old, this is much more... Okay, so you said this is a part of the American... It's called the American Academy in Rome. Okay, so leave it to the American Academy in Rome to bring Alice Waters in to make the food.

In Rome. Well, she planted a sustainable garden. That was her big contribution. I'm sure she did. Okay. Well, I mean, it was more of like a place where food is independently thriving, if not excelling, compared to the rest of the world. Exactly. But also, you can only eat so much cacio e pepe every day. You just toggle back between cacio e pepe and a little spaghetti carbonara. Yeah, sure. Now, are you venturing off property for any, you know, maybe an espresso just to change the view? No, I do. Yeah, that's the great thing. Again, like, because if you're in one of those other writers, like I said, I've never been, but, like, you're up in the woods of New Hampshire. You're up in western Massachusetts. Like, what are you going to do? Iowa. You know, walk in the woods. But here it's like, okay, it's 4 o'clock. I've done as much as I can. walk over San Giustacchio and get a coffee and then go look at the Pantheon and come back. Check out some of the cool fountains. Enjoy some mortadella. Yeah, you can be living La Vida Loco, whatever the kids say over here. Have you done drugs and gone to the Vatican yet? Because it's cool. You should try it. Oh, yeah? I mean, it's good not on drugs, too, but you should check out the Vatican. What was your favorite memory? I think it was the meticulous attention to detail and just the whole size and scale of all of it was probably the coolest part for me. Were you on acid or what? No, just edible, THC. So did you see the face of God? Yeah, and he asked me. Yes, for my Venmo. He gave me a Venmo request over there. They use it in Rome. It's crazy. It's kind of taken off over there. No, I'm not a religious man, but it blew me away. Because when you're traveling, especially with your life partner, you've got to be looking at a bunch of old churches. You've seen one, you've seen them all, but then I'm in the Vatican.

Losing my mind like, golly, I think I get it now. That's when he converted. I've been a Christian ever since. Now, do you feel like this is really helping your progress and it's working? Or is it more just like, I'm enjoying this, so I don't really care? No, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's four weeks, and actually I'm leaving tomorrow. But it's been great to have the space to immerse yourself. in your work for a sustained period of time and not be interrupted. That's the real opportunity you get here, right? Whereas rather than carving out two hours a day, but here you can sort of be thinking about it and working on it. Is it the kind of situation, Michael, where people talk about vacation like this, where it's something like, well, it takes me a week to actually unwind? I was just going to say that, and I didn't want to say it. But yes, it took me a week to get in the rhythm. And then you basically just find your rhythm and then you realize like it's ending soon. Like every trip to Rome. But there's some people who come here for like five, six months. They're the lucky ones. You're able to kind of focus and get your writing done on this retreat, which is the whole point of it. Do you have a ball and chain back home that you don't have to worry about all that constant nagging while you're trying to create your creative art? I refer to who is my lovely wife, Brooke. And she's given me like, she's like, you have to go. She's like, I need my time too here in New York City. It's good for both of us if you kind of head over. Now, has she visited or is this truly a solo excursion? Truly solo. And I said, why don't you come? And she's like, she's, again, much wiser than I am. And she said. You're just going to get started. You're just going to find your rhythm, and then I'm going to come. And it's like, we'll go back. We've been there before. We'll be there again. No, I mean, that's a smart approach. Because Jason's been doing a lot of writing lately, and I'm really pushing him. And I think that he's finding the time in the mornings, kind of, to do it early, early. That's the best time to do it. What time are you starting, Jason? Like 6.30. That's good. Yeah, but, you know.

That 45 minutes goes by real quick, and then it's done, as you know. But you've got to – this is where I'm going to turn to Brother Chris, where you would say – Just remember, the brain's a muscle, and you start with 15 minutes in the gym, and the next thing you're up to two hours. It's true. It's true. I mean, it's true. But, I mean, Jason, do you think you could benefit from something like this, or would you kind of give in to distraction? No, I mean, of course I'd be distracted by all the Parmigiano-Reggiano, but after that's done, then I think I'd be able to. And, Michael, if you are offering me... fellowship over there that is awesome and yeah the answer is yes I'll go yeah I you know I'm See, I've got that Tom Brown class set up, so I'm going to get a Jason Stewart class set up, and we're going to study you then. That's a good idea. Truly my dream. Yes. There's a lot to unpack there. It's the only subject I'm an expert at. In all seriousness, I would say I can't recommend writing in the morning enough because you get up and nothing's polluted your head yet. You haven't looked at emails. It's like you're still close to the. The purity of it all. I wake up at 5 a.m., hour and a half of TikTok, and then straight into the writing session. Yeah, no problem. Clear minds, ready to go. Are you not a night person then? You're not up late, laptop aglow with a nice brandy in the glass, smoking cigs. Why don't you go to bed, Brooke? Don't wait up. Don't wait up. I'm on a rip. I got a good chapter going here. No, don't drink. So that takes care of that. I used to be a night guy, but I think it's much more I get up at 4.30 and then it's like 5 to 7. You get up at 4.30? Yeah. Are you a swimmer? No, why is there a connection? Oh, that's right. They always go to the early people like that now.

But you said you got up at 5. Yeah, you know, those are the extra super psychos. 4.30, man, we get up early for sure, and I love it. It's like I absolutely – I mean, for me, I'm the same way. It's like if there's not – if you're not basically doing cocaine or chasing tail, there's no reason to be up past 10 p.m. There's just no, there's nothing for me. I'm flossing at 930. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Dental care, dental care is more important. We were at, we, we had, we had a dinner last night. I got home at like 11 and I'm feeling fucked up today. You know, I don't feel my best. I don't feel my best. I know. It's just like, you know, my grandmother used to say nothing good happens after two in the morning. Like, no, I'm like nothing good happens after 10 PM. Like what? You know, I don't know. Well, I used to, you know, when I was younger, especially in the music business and Jason could probably relate to this, there was like this kind of like, uh, way of thinking that was like, yeah, that's when all the good, you know, that's when the networking happens. That's when you're linking and building at the club at one in the morning. And I'm like, nobody, I'm linking and building with a key and a bag in the bathroom. I'm not making, I'm not making connections for life. You know, I'm not making, no deals are getting done. You're making connections, but you're forgetting them the next day. Yeah. It's like, it's not, that's not really happening in the same way. And you realize that as you get older, you're like, that's, that is a fallacy. That is not true. Uh, and, I'm sure there are rare instances where it is, but overall, that is not what's happening at 1.30 as the lights come on. It's just not. It's a great point. I think it's like when you're that age, and especially if you get into these creative businesses on the East or West Coast, whether it's music or publishing or TV film, where you're like, there's always this. When you start to read about it, I'm going to go into that business because it's like you work late in the studio or you're closing the magazine and then you go out for dinner and you get home at 2 in the morning. And that works for a while. And believe me, I did plenty of that at GQ, but then eventually.

I don't know, kind of nice to have dinner done at 7 o'clock. Yeah, no, for sure. It's just sold to us differently. I mean, I think it's also like the burning in at both ends thing is not rewarded the way it used to be. No. It's changed. I mean, you worked at magazines in the heyday. What do you think is going on now? Like, what do you think is going to actually happen, and what do you actually like? I wish that these businesses could get it together. you know, find a way to not be, you know, held hostage by tech. And I think that's a very simple way of looking at it. But, you know, I miss the idea where things were curated into a world and brought together all at once. And what I think is difficult is just how everything is just so fractured. So you don't get this curated world anymore. But I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know. And the crazy thing is, I don't know. I know that I hear it all the time. You can't make a living in it anymore. Yeah, I mean, that makes things difficult. When we were at GQ, you know. You could, you could be a writer and you get a contract there and you could live off it. You could be an editor and live off that salary. And, and, um, you know, that's, that's not easy anymore. No, no. I mean, that's the truth. I mean, but I also think that like, I mean, I feel like that weeds out some things in a good way, but I do think it, it, it overall, because I mean, we're, we're very pro gatekeeping on the show. You don't have to be so mean about Teen Vogue. What do you mean? What do you mean? Teen Vogue is great. I love that all of the girls that were featured on the back page in their bedrooms went on to be famous and rich. That's my favorite part of Teen Vogue. Are you kidding? Yeah. I think Airmail does a good job at kind of creating that curated world.

And I think, like, the release schedule and, like, having things come out on, like, you know, Saturday mornings and things like that, it does help create that world that I haven't seen since I was reading magazines as a youngster, you know? You know, because you've got Graydon, who's, you know, a genius in that, along with his co-editor, Alexander Stanley, but, like, you know, a guy who could figure out how to go into the digital space and, like, okay, make this thing that's... you know, a weekly version. Even the weekly pace doesn't exist anymore, but it's almost old school to come back and put a weekly out there. Definitely. And it's like, we're not going to tell you everything. We're just going to tell you the right things. And that's also a very smart way to look at it. I think everyone's too much of just like these crazy fire hoses trying to just... The how long gone method. We like to fire hose. Yeah, we're the fire hose approach for sure. I mean, you worked for Graydon early days at Spy. And I think that like, do you think that his approach has kind of stayed true and that's why it continues to work, you know, 25 years later? I think it's the intelligence that stayed the same and the ability to, I mean, when I say intelligence, it means so many things about him, but it's about his ability to see. see what a story should be, identify stories that should be done, his instincts for the culture and also how to cover it and how to make it compelling to readers. I mean, all that, it's going on decades of that. And I think he's never lost a step in it. And I think he's always... and just, you know, one step ahead of where the competition is enough and where the industry is. So I think it's, and that sensibility, which you just can't, you know, when people say sensibility, it's hard to define unless you can sort of like, but I think it's all in the publications that he's done, Spy, Venfair, and now. Do you think there will be a place and a time where like the general audience of the world,

where their intelligence level or their interest level or their attention span decreases so much that being one step ahead becomes detrimental to your success, like where you're being too well thought out and people don't even know that that's a thing that they want, or people don't even understand that building a world can be something that you can enjoy if you take the time to learn it. Could you repeat the question, sir? I don't fucking remember what I said, bro. No, what he's saying is, do you think that we could move into a state in society where kind of being ahead could be detrimental? Because people are so, you know, people don't get it almost. Which I think there's a possibility of that, you know, in some ways. Yeah, you're talking about in terms of like cultural coverage. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it gets so echo chamber. you can go into these echo chambers and think like this is the most important thing to be talking about and realize no one else knows or cares about it. It's what the internet is, why everyone loves it because you can find your own hyper niche, right? Yeah, and if those hyper niche people are rich enough, then you can have luxury fashion brands give you ad revenue to be able to have that little sustaining fun world to live in. But will that go away eventually? To put it simply, will people become so stupid that they don't want this level of content anymore in the future? I think that's the question for the last 25 years or so, but I think we've been struggling with that since the beginning of man. It's always been a fine line. There's always going to be some crazy, heady content that none of us understand that nobody knows about, and you want to walk the line between the junk food and the intelligence stuff, and that's where you guys are definitely swimming in. But it's good and it's important that you guys do have a little bit of the kind of gossipy, junk food-y content. Where do you go for your social media or just media in general junk food content? I go so few places now because I just...

I go to you guys. Fuck you, man. Come on. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Because 35, 45, 55 minutes with you guys, it's like you're getting this sort of, you know, these radar signals sent out about just the name checks that are happening. Like, okay, yes, I should know about that. But I don't. There's so much stuff that I don't have the time for it, and I feel like it's all people talking to each other about stuff that doesn't really matter. So we have been a funnel for people like you to be able to absorb all this information. Can you believe it's not paywalled? Yeah, if you guys are talking about it, and I'm not blowing smoke, but if you guys are talking about it, okay, then it's reached a point where it's... It's culturally relevant. Damn, that's high praise. I appreciate it. We even talked about Armie Hammer, and you guys talked about him too. Chris, did you read the piece on him in airmail? Yeah, of course. I did not read it. But that doesn't prevent you from talking about it. Exactly. No, of course not. Of course not. Of course not. That's why we're here. He's been at my gym lately too, so it's really hitting close to home. But I think that's a great example of a place that has leadership that is beholden to no one, where it's like if we want to do this and we want to take the responsibility and do this right and really report this story, whether people like it or not, we have the license to do that. Where if you're a multinational conglomerate, there's just going to be too many roadblocks to do something like that and take a little bit of a risk as far as what you're willing to cover and talk about. Yeah, and you also need an editor who's going to make a commitment. You need to invest in writers and editors who can create that material because those stories are not easy to get.

to get written, to get through legal and research. And it's a whole level of... Yeah, for sure. I think what's been lost in the great hollowing out of magazines is that expertise has just been sent into the wilderness. So you don't really have generations learning how to make that stuff anymore. And that's just a reality. No, no, for sure. I mean, people that are... I don't think a lot of people that casually follow this stuff or casually read magazines, you know, understand kind of the level of time and effort that goes into anything that's that reported. Yeah. Like, it's a nightmare. Yeah. Like, it just sucks. Like, there's almost no amount of money that makes it worth it. You're doing it because you love it. Yeah, and the commitment to it on every level. And I think that's what you, people, and then they say, how come there's nothing good to read? How come, and yet all, but then these, what you those places all sort of just end up you know now like oh i found this great podcast it's about a true crime story well a true crime story was you know one of six features that you would find in vanity fair gq every month right but so they just everyone just kind of sliced off pieces of what magazines used to do and then just made them their own little vertical no you're absolutely i mean you're absolutely right about that i mean i think that i think that I mean, Jason, obviously I talk about podcasting a lot. We've been having all these meetings lately talking about podcasting and blah, blah, blah. And I do think that it has replaced some things in a way where it's like I might rather read some things than hear people tell it to me depending on what it is. But most people strictly want to do things the easiest way possible. So if I have to sit down and read 5,000 to 8,000 words or I can listen to it, I'm going to listen to it. I don't know if the message or the entertainment value gets lost in that or not, but it's just different. I don't know what the answer is. Depends on who's reading it. You guys are at the top of your game. God bless you.

Like what we do, and it's also pretty open-ended. I think that if we were doing a 10-part series on a murder that took place in our hometown, we might not feel the same passion. But I also think that, like, the reason True Crime, I mean, the reason it was always so good in Vanity Fair is partly because they would focus on stuff that was sexy. You know, it was somehow related to Hollywood or old money or, like, European elegant. There's always something that made it. made it feel Vanity Fair, you know, and I think that's the beauty. Back in the day, it wasn't good enough to just die. Exactly, exactly. You had to die and be related to a prince, you know. It's like it was a different time. It was a different time. I was just thinking back to my question to you that was, you know, about are people just getting dumb or whatever, but it reminds me, you guys just had a recent article or a whole magazine piece called MAGA or MAGAzines, which sort of, is the same question that I was answering, you know? Like, there's two paths to take. Could you explain MAGA or MAGAzine to our listeners? Yeah, MAGAzine is M-A-G, you know, making America great again, MAGAzine. And it was... Damn right, brother. And it was like, what if we did a MAGA, what if Donald Trump had a magazine? What would the stories in that be, right? So you... get Ross McDonald and the people illustrated, Bruce Handy, and a lot of spy hands to sort of write stuff. And so, you know, you're doing it with satire and cultural commentary, which I think is... High satire, well-executed satire is also a hard thing for people to do in print now. Oh, yeah. You don't really see that either. Yeah, it's tough to execute and find an audience for, I guess. But when it's done well, it's my favorite. You've just been doing this a long time. You're a wealth of knowledge, Michael. You know, and I think that that's the... Well, you know, that's why I teach at Notre Dame. That's why I teach the Tom Brown PhD program. But I think that the thing that a lot of these magazines particularly, I mean, I think fashion pays the bills and you lean into fashion, of course, for those reasons. For sure. But I mean, I think that's what you're talking about. And I mean, I was subscribing to Vanity Fair in my early 20s and not because I was like...

you know, smart or my parents taught me that. It was just like, this is interesting and I don't really get it. You know, I didn't really understand. So reading it, I felt like I was kind of seeing inside of a world that I shouldn't have access to. And I think that was the power of that. And that coming to my mailbox once a month, there was an anticipation. It's similar to the way that appointment television is lost now. And it's like there was this anticipation. There was also a little bit of the power of everybody kind of discovering the same thing at once. which happens now when the Army Hammer thing goes online. That's all anybody talks about for 48 hours. That's a huge story. There's debate on both sides. It's like what you want to happen with something like that comes out. I just think it's a lot more fleeting because there's going to be another one the next day. Yeah, it's the pace as well as the number of – you can't even call them outlets, right? But it just is every – Everyone is an outlet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the name of my next club. Everything is copy and everyone's an outlet. Yeah. So everyone's a publisher, right? It's true. How do you break through all that noise? And some stories, the few stories do resonate. And that's why I'm bringing it back to you guys because there's the signal and then there's the noise. And then there's everyone talking about all this stuff. You're scrolling through TikTok. I don't know. You feel like you're just standing on a subway platform and people just keep screaming stuff at you versus you sit down with a good friend, have lunch, and they said, do you know about this, this, this? And it's like, no, amazing, great. I just had a conversation with my smart friend. This is what I want. How often? How often do you hang out with people that are considerably younger than you? It sounds like I'm being – Yeah, don't get this guy in any trouble, Chris. No, no, I don't mean like that. No, no, I just mean that I think that the – Why don't you have a suit over there? Sit down. This is – I'm Chris Black. To catch an editor. I'm Chris Black from ABC. That might be the best one ever. To catch an editor. I just –

I just mean more like do you – like is that – like I hang out with people in their mid-20s, friends of mine, and I feel like I'm always kind of learning something and it goes both ways. And like these are – I think there's a certain brand of young person that has kind of respect for what came before and I think there's another version that doesn't. And I'm just – I find that valuable for me. I just wondered if you do stuff like that on purpose or not, on purpose or not. Yeah, because you're just – If you do what we do, which is you've gotten into, you've managed to make a living because you're curious about the world and, you know, you want to know what people think and how things happen, you know, you're going to naturally, I think, then sort of be building a circle of friends and acquaintances where it's like these people feed my head, you know. And so, yeah, no, I've got fortunately more than a few. At this point, everyone's young to me. Okay. It gets easier as you get older to find young people. Yeah, exactly. To find young people you can trust. And also moving forward, whenever somebody asks me what I do for a living, I'm going to tell them I'm curious about the world. Yeah, it's a great way to put it. But it is. It's a certain kind of person. You see this like. Jason and I have a lot of friends who are writers and do this stuff for a living, and even talking to them, it's like the way they approach it is a little bit differently. They're very good and very slick at finding things out about you without you realizing it because they're genuinely curious about what you have to say or what you've been through, et cetera, et cetera. You feel that when you perk up a little, you understand it, but it is a certain kind of person. And there's a lot of people that go through life that just don't give a shit. It's probably very freeing. It's probably very freeing. Yeah, and there's a lot of people. I think also a lot of people go through life who don't know how to listen. And that's the difference because they get in a conversation and you realize they don't know how to listen. The worst. Instant boner killer for me when they don't know how to listen. The worst.

I had an editorial question, grammatically speaking, I guess. I'm bad at grammar, but go ahead. Try me. When you're describing certain places, it could be a city or a country or whatever, but like a specific place, let's say Nantucket, for example, what does a city have to possess or what does the place or the name have to possess to where you say you are on Nantucket versus in Nantucket? I would think on because that's an island. I think maybe that's the distinction, is that it's an island, so you're on it, versus a city, you're in it. But has anyone ever said, I'm on Hawaii? Good point. I think there has to be an air of superiority or something going on to it, to where you say on, and it only appears with places like that. I think if you really wanted to ratchet up the superiority of it, you would say, like, I'm summering. On Nantucket. On Nantucket, exactly. Let's combine. Let's really do it all. You could kiss my ass. I'm thinking of buying On Nantucket. Yeah. I was listening to one of your podcasts from a couple episodes back, and somebody mentioned On Nantucket. And the way that they said it, it had this air of superiority or some type of signaling to it. And I was like, how come some places, usually affluent white people, destinations like Nantucket or the Hamptons or the Cotswolds or whatever, they kind of would say, I'm on that place versus in that place. But just a fun little aside. Yeah, I'm sure that's a pretty waspy locution if we looked into it, right? Yeah. It's a little wasp dog whistle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's important to preserve our dog whistles of yore. And pass them on to our grandchildren. Yeah, no, totally. Before we wrap up, I wanted to maybe have you give Jason a few New York restaurant recommendations that maybe he hasn't been to. I just feel like you kind of go to some places that maybe haven't hit Jason's radar, a little more old school, possibly. So if you have anything you want to share. Well, you've been to Via Corotta, right? Yeah, I have. Okay. They got a salad that just don't quit.

I know. It's a piled high, right? It is piled high. Yeah. I love you. I love you talking about the Veer Crow to sound like it's a fucking Carl's Jr. with the works. Baby gem as far as the eye can see. Okay. Well, Veer Crow to the stratosphere. That's a neighborhood spot for you, I know, but I didn't know if there was anything else, you know, that maybe that maybe. Yeah. Where are you getting your 4 a.m. sandwich? And I know that you go to bed and you're. I know you're flossing by 8.30, but that one New Year's Eve night, you go out, you stay up until 11.15, you hit the bodega for some hot Cheetos and some Takis. What sandwich? Where are you going for that? I don't have those places in my neighborhood anymore. They seem to have all gone away. It's all like juice bars. You gentrified them away? Yeah, you got rid of them. I did. They were priced out or something? I don't know. It's so weird. Jason, have you been to jeans yet? Jeans like the bar club? No, like Gene's the 100-year-old Italian restaurant in my neighborhood. No, I have not. Oh, okay. This is piquing my interest. How is Gene's spelled? Is it G-E-N-E-S? Yeah, it's not them, Gene's. It's my Gene's. Okay, good distinction. Okay, Gene's Restaurant, [redacted address], between 5th and 6th Ave. Okay. Yeah. But I'm giving it away, but I'll take you there. A village tradition since 1919. Mamma mia. Older than Graydon. Okay, so we need some. So this is like a classic red sauce joint for Jason to kind of tuck his napkin into his shirt and dig into some meatballs. Okay, this is perfect. I need to go get some clams in the village. That's where I'm going, too. I like some clams casino. We'll set this up for next time Jason touches down on the Big Apple. because I would like to witness this as well. We'll have a sit-down at Gene's, and we'll get this whole thing straightened out, okay? I'm hoping that you will make me an offer that I can't refuse over a piece of cheesecake that was made days or weeks prior. Just days or weeks prior. Michael, thank you for joining us. It was a pleasure. Guys.

This has been a dream come true. A life list, bucket lesson, whatever they call it. Big, big fan of your work for a very long time. And if you guys don't subscribe to Air Mail, go do it. If you haven't read Michael's book, it's available everywhere books are sold. It sounds like there's a new one in the works, which we will await. And have a nice last night in Rome. Sorry we cut into your Apertivo time. I just did a highlight of it. Thank you, guys. It's been a long time. I'm really excited. Thank you so much for having fun. Ciao, Haney. Ciao. Ciao, ragazzi. Ciao, ciao.