036. - Jeff Ihaza

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Hello. What up? What's up, bro? Damn, just saw a picture of Harry Styles in the protest. So it's finally hitting home for you. No, I'd love to see it though, man. I knew my king would land on the right side of history. Where are you at now? You started driving through America yesterday, two days ago. Yeah. Man, it is depressing. I drove from New York to Richmond, Virginia. I got there and it was, I mean, basically everything boarded up. It was like 90 degrees and sunny, and it's just a very weird feeling visually. But a follower today hit my DMs. I'd already left, but the mayor announced he was taking down this famous Confederate statue today, which is a big deal. So I would have loved to see that, actually, but I was already on the road, and now I'm in Charleston, South Carolina. which has a fraught history when it comes to racial injustice. And I actually just participated in a protest outside, and it was very young, actually, because it's a college town. But I felt very old, but it was small, but everybody was young, and it was pretty diverse. But no adults being there kind of says a lot. Sure. Not no adults, but you know what I'm saying. Like, it's clearly people are 21 years old, you know, which is, like, kind of who you would expect to be participating in this in a town of this nature and size. But, yeah, man, I mean, it's fucked up. I, like, wish I wouldn't have done this. Like, I don't think this is – I was looking forward to it as kind of like a reentry. uh after being in canada for so long uh during during the uh not that we're not still in it but during the height of covid um and it's more depressing than anything else but also i feel like it's probably good for me to see it and experience it at the same time that's good i think you have the right attitude um yeah yeah i mean i i hope so yeah yeah i mean a lot of um a lot of things that we

you know, took for granted as just normal things in our life are definitely on hold in a big way right now. And, you know, it's helping us all kind of look at our own bullshit that we've been copping to for a long time and dealing with it. It's wild, man. I mean, look, a lot of time in the car alone can can only lead to self-reflection. So, you know, I I would agree with that. But today, I mean, this was fucking like I kind of forget. You know what I'm saying? When you live in New York and you're just part of that, you really do kind of like even being from the South. I haven't lived there long enough to like kind of forget sometimes. This afternoon, I stopped to get a water on the way down, and I went into a gas station or whatever. And no one's wearing a mask except me, first of all, which is the first time I've seen that. The rest of this trip, everywhere I stopped, it was pretty masked up in a gas station. Anyway, so I'm buying my water, and the old fucking white guy behind the counter is like, oh, where are you going? I started in New York and I'm going to Atlanta and, and, and he just looks right at me and he goes, are they still, is it still burning? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. He's like, they need to stop that right now. Like dead ass eye contact with me. And I was just like, I didn't even know what to say. Like I was just so taken aback that someone would be like confrontational for absolutely no reason. Obviously, I need to expect that from the kind of people I'm going to fucking deal with when you're in these places. That's just par for the course in some ways. I was like, damn, this shit is real as fuck. People are mad as hell on both sides. It's really crazy.

When someone's like, you know what, should I sit here for an hour and get in a fight with this old man and tell him he's a fucking idiot and get a gun pulled on me at a gas station? Like probably, this guy's going to die. His mind is not going to change. You know what I mean? That's not the problem. And so in some ways, I think that is why seeing this protest here in Charleston that was so full of young people is encouraging if you look at it from that standpoint. Like these are the people that I actually have to carry on. You know, like they're not going to die in three or four years. Like these are the people that are going to be left to shape society and, you know, run governments, businesses, et cetera, et cetera, where a difference can actually be made. Yeah, they're the same people who are upset about young people protesting about everything, including climate change and from climate change to police brutality and everything in between. They're people who are. Not into that at all. Just not into it. That's a great way to put it. We're just not into this. This whole change happening, we're just not into this. And I think that obviously any human can recognize that change is scary and difficult. But I think as you get older and more set in your ways, it really just isn't an option for you, especially when you live somewhere that is probably going to be one of the last places to turn around. And, you know, a lot of people in rural areas who are white and, you know, they really believe in their heart that their life has been unfair for them and their struggle has been a real struggle. And they, you know, they feel like they're in need of justice just as much as people who are being murdered for existing. Yeah, that's the thinking it's fair part is truly demented. Life ain't easy for me too, brother. Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, really, bro? Because look, let me tell you, my life has been very easy. Any problems I've had were self-inflicted. So that ain't systemic is what I'm trying to say. That ain't the man keeping me down. That's bad choices. It's two very different things. And I mean, look, if you're working at a gas station in rural South Carolina, you've obviously made some decisions.

So, you know, I can't I can't say that's not true. But I mean, I was just again, I was just a little bit like taken aback. I forget that like people on that side are as combative and as vocal, you know, as as people on the right side, which is which is obviously, you know, part of the reason all this shit is happening to begin with, you know. And they're they're tired of, you know, talking about it with a bunch of peers that agree with them. They want to. you know, talk to you, a tatted up liberal cuck who does not own any guns to tell you, you know, and maybe he thinks he can change the world by, by, you know, changing your mind somehow. I mean, it, yeah, no, no, no, of course. I mean, and that's the, I think that's a duality for me. It's like, yo, this is, this, in some ways I'm like, damn, this could have been me. Like this, not, not this particular guy, but those attitudes. I mean, that's just what you're surrounded by. If you stayed in the South, you could have ended up being, you know, a more swaggy version of this person. Yeah, exactly. I'd be in much better shape, but my attitude would not be. And that is the that's what I think really hits home with stuff like this for someone like me. And I mean, I see and even seeing what's going on in Orange County. I mean, it's obviously different because it's not recognized as like the hub of racism in the world the way the South is. Yeah, but it has been recognized as the hub of racism in California. Extremely liberal California, which is not a title one wants. Well, I think the real difference in it is there are many, many kind of racist country, quote unquote, places in California where our rednecks look the exact same as one found in Kentucky. or alabama or wherever but um you know it's it's just a lot more attention grabbing and you know it stings a little bit sticks out it sticks out more when these are like hot fashionable wealthy people driving mercedes benzes and when you're wearing and stuff while also trying to start a race why race yeah

When you're wearing billabong and starting a race riot, it's very confusing to understand that. It really is. Yeah, I saw a video of this dude in Carlsbad, which is a city near San Diego, of this guy basically saying, like, I'm going to gather up a bunch of people with guns and we are going to defend all the stores in our city from the looters and basically recruiting people. And you hate black people like I do, come squad up and let's murder people who are protesting in our city. And he's a dude that looks like he would be on Riverdale. He's just some hot 21-year-old buff dude. It's very confusing. I think that's the big takeaway, though, is that this shit doesn't have a look necessarily or an age or a creed. Not anymore. It truly can be anyone. Anyway, wow. Don't worry. We'll talk about this for another full hour. Today, our guest is Jeff Ahiza, a friend of mine from New York. He has a magazine that he does called Secret that I had a piece in the last issue. And he also is an editor at Mike.com. He's just a really smart guy. He's from Houston. And I just think he'll have something to offer on the conversation. So I wanted to get him involved this week. Amazing. Let's give him a ring. Let me give him a buzz, mate. All right. This episode of How Long Gone has brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated.

but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you.

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So they just stayed out there. So I've been in the crib solo for three plus months at this point. Are you, uh, do you, I mean, obviously that's good, but also are you just losing it from lack of human contact? I think for a while I was, and now I'm kind of like, I'm on some other shit. Like I feel like a guru or something. You've leveled up. I've leveled up. I've leveled up. And also living in New York with a roommate, any time that that person is out of town, even if they are your soulmate and loved one, it becomes a real blessing. Yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, I love the guy to death, but then it's like, ooh, two-bedroom to myself? Okay. Sure. I mean, that's always a positive. But, I mean, you've been working, right? Yes, I'm the culture editor at Mike.com and fortunate to be gainfully employed during all of this. No, go ahead, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Yeah, just the work from home dynamic is, I feel like in editorial, we're all probably pretty accustomed to working from home. In other jobs I've had, it was pretty much the norm. The only thing is just not seeing your coworkers at all for this long. kind of wild but overall it doesn't feel like we really skipped a beat in terms of just like work stuff how much you guys have had a very busy busy time i'm sure mike.com covers i guess kind of like politics and culture i guess is what you would say yeah politics culture lifestyle well-being stuff like that have you had have you had is it been more of a workload or less of a workload I think in some ways more, in some ways less. I think with not being in an office, I think there are a few, call it bureaucratic things, that you kind of don't need to be as cognizant of. I can wake up and pull up to my laptop and get going. But then at the same time, with just the way the news has been for the past few months, it's like there's really no down period. There's no slow news week.

Yeah, remember Slow News Weeks? Right? Damn. I mean, I've never wanted celebrity gossip to be more important. This Lea and Michelle shit is not hitting for me. It's not good enough. You're going to have to start collecting vintage celebrity news, Chris. Yeah, exactly. Sustainable, reused. One thing that's really funny is I think, especially in the celebrity space for the past few months, it's really just been like the main story has been celebrities fucking up. And I'm surprised more celebrities haven't fucked up. I'm surprised we haven't heard... Lena Dunham, I would assume, would be the first person to just say the wrong thing right now. Well, I mean, we do have... We do have... I mean, there's been a few. I mean, J-Lo today tweeted that shit. It's crazy. Oh my goodness. I mean, it's so good. I mean, if Big LD can change, then anything is possible, you know? It's true. Also, though, Jeff, I think that the reality is a lot of people, and I mean, this is its own separate issue, but, you know, they're not saying shit because they don't want to fuck up. Right, right. And, you know, that's its own issue, but I think that is stopping some people from digging their own grave. which you gotta you gotta love it yeah i mean i guess i mean the phrase you love to see it has has grown at the same time as celebrities fucking up has become the most enjoyable content to consume my favorite my favorite new meme right now is the like the quote tweet with this you question mark and then just like it's someone saying some like you know we stand in solidarity with black lives and then someone's got the screenshot of them just being like fully od on some racist shit like six months ago i mean the internet you know doesn't forget especially when it comes to shit like this i mean i you know i want to talk about the i think it's interesting that the the the money donation portion um it feels like it's if you're a celebrity it's just never good enough um from the internet and i i don't know if that's necessarily fair

I've been tricky. I've felt a lot of certain ways about the donation stuff because I think there's like the immediate instinct, right? Is like, you know, say it with your wallet, show your support with your money, et cetera. Vote with your dollars. Right. And we got to a place really quickly after Minneapolis where, you know, the Minneapolis jail fund within 24 hours was like, yo, we have enough money. The Brooklyn bail fund, same thing. And I think like virality kind of creates this dynamic where people love to think of things in like pretty easy buckets where it's like if I donate to this thing, I've done the right thing. And I think that like eliminates the work that needs to be done on people's part. It's like you got to do more than just like donate to the same thing that your boy donated to. It's about like knowing what's going on and where the help is needed and where you can serve. A joke that I saw that really resonates to me is like, within a week or two of quarantine, we had sourdough starter experts all over the internet. And that shit ain't easy. I've tried to make bread. You gotta actually work on it. I can vouch it. It's not easy. But you can tell me that all these people just simply have no idea how to help out the black community other than one or two GoFundMes that have been shared all over the internet. yeah well you know when you when you create an amazing loaf of sourdough bread all by yourself you get to share it online and everyone gets to say good job and you get a nice hit of dopamine um and people don't know that you can also get an even better hit of dopamine for posting you know amazing things that you've done to help other people right but at the same time like i don't think that like I mean, save from Virgil Abloh, who I think with his whole his whole energy in the first 72 hours of this thing was out of pocket. But I think save from that, I think most most celebrities, I have no beef with, you know, throwing a thousand the weekend through half a million dollars at different organizations. Drake threw 100 grand at organizations.

i mean i respect that's a lot of money half a million dollars is a lot of money i mean you know what i mean that that's what i'm saying like i understand it's all relative but i don't think it's fair to i just don't think that's where the energy should be directed you know the negative the negative energy should be directed it's just it's just like i think the i think the virgil thing was a special case but like you said because of how he handled it um and uh the situation in general Um, but I think the weekend, you know, being quiet or this Kanye West thing today, he donated $2 million. That's a lot of fucking money. It's bread. That's real bread. You know what I mean? And in Kanye's case, it's even more powerful because he didn't say anything stupid while giving the money. He just gave the money, which I think is actually says even more. He finally listened to what Rick Rubin was telling him to do. No, seriously. I think it's like, I think like. he could have said something that would have diminished the actual good that he's doing, and I'm glad that he was able to restrain himself. You mean he could have been Kanye? Exactly, yeah. I mean, he was probably still running the MAGA hat while he donated it, though. Well, I mean, that I guess leads me to this question because you said it's not just about donating money. It's also about being educated and knowing why you're doing it and how it is affecting everyone directly. Is there an amount of money that sort of excuses that? Like if Bezos just is like, I'm donating $50 billion, will everyone be like, fuck it, do whatever you want. That's huge. That's big money. That's enough to change the world. I mean, if Bezos put $[redacted address], I think it would be hard for a lot of people to come at Amazon, which is like a double-edged sword because it's like $50 billion eating shit to that man. Right. I mean, it might be a little bit, but, you know. Yeah, come on, dawg. Come on, dawg. That's a little bit. Come on. It's the same way as $500 is not really anything. For Drake. Something like The Weekend. Exactly. Or The Weekend. People who make that in one night or in 60 minutes. So it's a tricky thing. But that's why the money stuff just becomes so tricky. Because it's like, you gave me 50 billion. You put 50 billion is a crazy number to be thrown around. But let's say that's what happens. If he's still doing this shit with Amazon, if the Amazon workers are still out here working basically slave wages and slave hours and dangerous conditions, it's like, what?

What did you solve? It's like a PR crisis that you really solve. That's the same as R. Kelly donating $20 million or something like that. It takes the attention off. Jeff, are you from Houston or did you grow up in Houston? I'm from Houston, so born and raised up to 18 in Houston. Where's your family from? My family grew up in... So both my parents are Nigerian immigrants that came from Nigeria in the late 70s or early 80s. Directly to Houston? Directly to Houston. Or actually, I think my dad or my mom, they made like pit stops around as like everyone kind of does was you figure out America. I think they lived in Alabama for a second. They were like, nah, we're out of here. Nah, Alabama, we're straight on that. We're good on that. Well, my oldest brother was born in Alabama, but then they lived in, they moved to Dallas and then Houston before I was born. I see. So to Texas, they had to find the right spot, but they liked it in general. Yeah, I mean, Texas treats immigrants interestingly. I can't say it's a good place to be an immigrant, but at the same time, especially a city like Houston, if you go there and if you know people from there, it's like, I can't think, even living in New York for the past six years or now, it's like, I can't think of another place in America that has as rich and deep an immigrant population from every place in the world as Houston. I've actually I've heard that before and I have been there and I actually really liked it there. But that that I was I have heard the immigrant stuff before about how it's just really, really diverse. But I guess I want to I want to talk about your upbringing because I think it is important to understand. Like, did you go to like high school and that kind of stuff? Were you was it a white high school? Was it a mixed high school? Was it private? Was it public? So yeah, I grew up pretty average, I'd say. I don't want to tell a sob story and be like, I didn't have any money. Definitely didn't grow up with a ton of money, but I was privileged enough to go to school, have a car when I was 16, that type of thing. Sure. The high school I went to was super diverse, which is cool, because I think my senior year, University of Michigan was doing a study on my school, and there was a New York Times story that came out about my school district and how it was one of the most diverse in the country.

And it's actually been an interesting dynamic that I've had to like check myself on living in New York because it's like my assumptions around race and around identity have been privileged in that way of just like I'm not used to thinking of things in that easy dichotomy of like, oh, well, it's an all white place or an all black place because it was just never like that for anywhere that I grew up. But yeah, I mean. I was, I was lucky enough to go to a high school where it was like, not even down the middle, but like, you'd never felt like out of place. Like there was enough black students or enough Latino students, enough Asian students, enough Asian students of different, you know, Asian identities. Right. It's like, we had a lot of Pakistani students, a lot of Indian students, a lot of Vietnamese, a lot of Chinese, and like the differences inside of those dynamics on top of the fact that it's just not all white people. Even when I think of high school, I can't even like, I don't even think the popular kids were white. It really just wasn't like that. That is interesting. That definitely was not my experience, for sure. It was very much white-led, for lack of a better term. That's not to say all of Houston's like that. There were the super white schools in Houston and the private schools and this and that, but in a lot of the areas, it was decently diverse. Then there was obviously the you know, the more central areas where the populations were still predominantly black. I think, you know, George Floyd had went to Yates High School for a second. And I remember there was a summer that I spent doing a summer camp in Third Ward and Yates High School is, you know, a predominantly black school. So it's not to say that all of Houston just got these beautiful, you know, Obama high schools or whatever. Sure, sure, sure. This is your experience. Yeah, there's a good deal of that. I think that that is, that does, I feel like that can make things, I mean, Does that make this whole issue complicated for you? Or are you able to see things in very clear terms? I mean, I think it's one of those things where, like, I've done that education for myself of just, like, checking my assumptions around race, especially over the past few years, just of the different dynamics that I've encountered just in life of, like, oh, you know, the media industry isn't terribly diverse. Like, the professional world in New York, the creative world in New York isn't terribly diverse.

There are reasons for that that are bigger than anything that I that I've been cognizant of growing up. But I think around around issues like this, it's like just because, you know, Houston and where I grew up was pretty diverse, doesn't that doesn't necessarily change the severe discrepancies between policing. You know, I like I think of the kids I knew in high school who. their lives were wrecked over, you know, half a gram of weed in their backpack. And I'm like, who were the cops on campus searching? You know what I mean? Like it's still, it still comes down to those levels on an individual basis. But I think the exposure does do something to your mindset around it. And at least the way that you might view solidarity. Cause I think for better or worse, it's easier for me to like think to see like white allies, quote unquote, and not be. as suspicious yeah and i say for better or worse because i think there are a lot of reasons to be suspicious in a lot of cases but at least for me it's like just give just provided the way i grew up it's it's it's it's not as big a hurdle for me to see a white person try to do good and think okay they're trying Yeah, I mean, it definitely is a double edged sword for sure. But I mean, I think that are you experiencing a lot of like white friends reaching out to you to talk and shit? Or have people gotten the message that that's not really acceptable? I wish people had gotten. Don't don't don't count me asking you to be on this podcast. Just for the record. That doesn't count. No, and I think I mean, I think and I've been seeing a lot of people talk about this. And, you know, my my perspective is like. It's individual. It's case by case. There are white people that I'm close enough with where it's like, I called you in the middle of the night upset about X, Y, or Z. So it makes sense. We have that type of friendship for you to be like, yo, what's good? How are you feeling? But then there are the people who you haven't talked to in mad long. And it's like, yo, what? How do you even still have my number type of thing? The equivalent of somebody hitting you up for guest list.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, there was a recent one where it's like there are people who you can tell their conscience is guilty about whatever they might have done to you in the past. And it's like that's a weird situation to deal with because it's like I'm not really here to clear your conscience. Like I'm glad you feel a type of way seeing everything in the news. But like if you did me wrong in one way or the other, like you knew back then that. race was an issue. Like, I just don't buy it. But like, oh, all of a sudden, because it's all over Instagram, like now it's time to check in on Jeff. I'm not going to hit you with the magic wand of forgiveness because you gave me a nice little text. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, there's a lot of that that's happening in many different ways. And I think, I mean, it really kind of comes down to the energy of just, you know, are you treating somebody? like a normal person and you can kind of tell if they are if they're doing it because they have something that they're trying to get out of it forgiveness or you know clearing a good conscience i mean and people will hopefully learn how to do that the right way i mean it's crazy just looking at social media right now because and i've talked to a few people about this where it's like i think the the overarching idea is that the only thing i can do right now is like signal boost other people and i think that's super fair and that's good but then it's like you do have to ask the question of like again like what i was saying before of like at what point are you educating yourself about what needs to be signal boosted you know it's it's bigger than just every black person you see let me have the like 50 story instagram and just post every single one of them and then i feel good about myself because i've boosted all these people it's like there are ways to be effective and I think highly and I think everyone is intelligent enough to understand the ways in which they can be effective. It's on them to take that step of really trying to understand what am I doing and who am I posting for. It's like the Instagram black tile thing. That just emerged overnight and then it's suddenly all these white people being like, yeah, Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter. And it's like, dude, are you even thinking about...

what you're saying and what you're doing? Are you posting this because it's the new trend right now? Yeah, I think, you know, the same way everyone has done the research and homework to develop their own aesthetic on Instagram, you know, they need to put in that same amount of work for their activism as well. And just blindly posting everything makes you look like a cornball aesthetically and activism-ly as well. I mean, I think that understanding complex race issues is a lot to ask of a lot of dumbasses. You know what I mean? And I think that taking the time versus doing something kind of performative is just the nature of the beast when it comes to something difficult, you know? And I mean, that's obviously no excuse, but I do think that's part of the reason this stuff on Instagram and social media in general is just so rampant is because it's like, you know, you want to look like you're doing what you can, whether you are actually doing the homework or not. Right. And then it's like, who do you want? Who do you who's that presentation for? I think that's the question that a lot of people need to start asking themselves. It's like. Is this presentation so you just don't look like a bad person to your white peers? Or is this presentation to show solidarity and support to the black people in your life? And are there black people in your life? I was about to say, you skipped a step there. That's a big step. And that's the thing that I've been thinking about the most here. And again, just thinking about my own upbringing and my own background. Fuck it. I'm a skateboarder. I came up in a punk. underground world so it's like i can't sit here in front like i'm like mr black power all of a sudden but like so so even for me sometimes i feel like and like kind of in an awkward spot where i'm like damn i'm definitely your only black friend to some of these people on instagram and it's like i'm not i i'll be the first to tell you i'm not representative of the black community in any way and it's like i want to see more people show solidarity with like the black people that don't

act like me. They don't dress like me. They don't talk like me. That's what it's really about. It's kind of like that whole birding situation in Central Park where everyone was so quick to be like, oh, look at how great this man is and he's hot and this and that. But it's like, what about George Floyd? What about Breonna Taylor? These people don't fit the mold of your black friend or whatever. They're not a buff lawyer that works on AIDS for free. That does make a difference, though. That does make a difference. I think that that story, compared to what we're dealing with now, I wouldn't say I forgot, but it seems like six months ago. Yeah, and it's crazy that it was literally the same week. Yeah, within a week of each other, these things happened. Have you talked to your parents? Yeah, I mean, that has been like... Probably to me, just the most heartbreaking part of it is like, A, just the distance where it's like, I haven't, you know, my brother just had a kid, haven't been able to go home since Christmas. And even talking to my parents, it's like, I've never experienced this level of frustration from them with these issues. I think something, I mean, definitely quarantine has something to do with it where it's like... they're just fed up and you know i my parents are the most christian people in the world like you know very very church-going god-loving etc and it's like to hear them express their frustration with like how are they still doing this shit how is this still happening that's where that's where i'm just like i don't even know like well i think when you're i mean if they're religious um you know forgiveness is such a big part of that faith you know so i think that it's very hard to kind of understand how to navigate like you know, anger or despair or, or even just like hatred for lack of a better term, you know? Um, and you know, still, uh, you know, be, feel like a, feel like a Christian or feel like they're doing the right thing based on what they believe in. Right. And it's like, you don't want to hate white people, you know, but sometimes it's like, what, what's going, what is this? You know? And that's, that's a conversation I've had with my folks recently. I'm just like,

you know you want to love everyone you want to show everyone love and you want and you want to be respectful and and you know i my my folks got mad at me years ago because i tweeted some shit like i literally probably tweeted fuck white people and my dad i literally tweeted fuck white people and then my dad told me it was crazy yeah my people called me like yo you can't you can't why would you say that like we don't believe we don't we didn't raise you to be like that and it's like almost almost reversed now not like my parents are hitting me with like fuck white people but just like this is this is a problem with white people this is the problem that they've been having for a long time you know my dad will tell stories of you know going to college in texas and having professors ask him if he you know was friends with monkeys and shit like it's it's such an unending crisis that like you everyone i think has reached a sort of frustration point uh Yeah, I mean, I think that that is the thing that, you know, is the hardest to relate to or even process fully is that this could, you know, your dad's probably, you know, in his 60s and this has been happening his entire life in some level. And down to when they were in Nigeria, you know what I mean? Where it's like the British occupied that spot and it's like the level of just... The way these things pan out every time and the power dynamics of who gets to narrate and who gets to dictate what the narrative looks like and the frustration of sitting there and knowing what the truth is and watching it get distorted in real time. It's tough. It's a tough thing for anyone to navigate. I'm heartened. I feel good about the level of energy that is out there right now. I think people... for better or worse, whether it's a guilty conscience, whether it's whatever. I mean, they're thinking about it. They're talking about it. People are now posting things like, talk to your parents about this. Make sure you're bringing this conversation to the white people in your life who are Trump voters or whatever. And that's good. I mean, that's as much as you can hope for. It gets tricky when you start to think about how long this has been going on. It's like, I struggle to fight against the cynicism of like...

you know, are a bunch of cops going to go to jail and this, that'll happen. And then we're back to square one basically. Well, that's the, I mean, I think that's what I'd rather not talk about that at this moment. Yeah. If you could, if you could just give us a little break, please. Uh, no, I think that, I mean, I think that's the, that's also something I've been thinking about today when I was in the car for six hours alone, listening to podcasts about this exact topic. Um, it's kind of like, yeah, what, what's the, what's the end game? You know what I mean? What? Obviously, attitudes are changing and will continue to change, I think, among people that were on the wrong side. But that is a very small part of the bigger issue about the police brutality and the arrests and just the overall government's approach to everything. And so these cops going to jail, is that... that's not enough. So is that just the, is that the kickoff point that is that a new start? Does that, or does that feel like something that's not even really that important in the scheme of things? I mean, I think for me, like having just, you know, I've been in New York six years and just in that time, the number of times this has happened, right? It's like we had Ferguson, we had Eric Garner. Yeah. And even in those situations, right, it was always a very similar thing where, okay. They're going to prosecute or maybe they will prosecute or, you know, this cop got fired or they're not on the force anymore. They didn't get fired. And I think the conversation now has shifted finally towards police abolition, even though there's these like egghead reporters from Vox talking about that's a bad idea all of a sudden, as though there isn't three decades of research on it. It's useful. It's useful that, you know, a lot more of these kind of quote unquote radical ideas are entering into the mainstream because I think we need to rethink what what it means to have, you know, safety in our communities, what that looks like, how many things can be handled by mental health professionals versus calling the cops, what it means to call the cops. I mean, the whole Amy Cooper situation of like this, this ingrained idea in American society that like the police are there to protect you as white people, you know, to be walking around with this sense that like, oh, I have a paramilitary organization behind me if anyone ever makes me feel threatened.

I think that's what we really need to dismantle. And police scare me in a bigger way because this whole defund the police situation does not go far enough. You defund the cops and they're just going to sit on their ass and not do anything and then blame the politicians for it. Even in these protests already, we're seeing like, you know, when all the looting was happening in New York, there was a bunch of quotes from NYPD officers going around like, yeah, what are we going to do? Blame it on your politicians. You know, they really want to create the situation where they're the saviors. And that's how these unions work. I mean, big supporter of unions generally, but police unions specifically, they have a very, they have a stranglehold over the social contract. You know, they really do kind of see themselves as like, well, if you don't give us everything we want, then we're just going to let chaos reign. It's like in the 70s where they're handing out pamphlets in New York, New Fear City, like really ginning up this idea that without them. everyone's in danger and of course that danger that they speak of the danger that they talk about is is ingrained racism it's like it's it's triggering that fear that i think a lot of white people have if not most white people of black people you know it's the fucking if we don't get what we want we are gonna let the black people loose on on the streets and then exactly exactly and that and that's what and that's the that's a real position of power that's a real that's a real checkmate for You know, white old people who run this country. I mean, what do you think? What do you what do you what would you like to see? Or what do you think the future of police reform, you know, realistically speaking, looks like? I think I think it's perfectly reasonable to imagine a world without police. Really to start from a place of like police are bad. They don't do their job. They don't do whatever the job we've assigned them to be is because that job is fundamentally racist to begin with. We tried the experiment of police and it failed. Yeah, we ran this wood for a couple hundred years. Turns out it's not working. Look, we let this thing rock for a while. For a while. Data's just showing. Yeah, exactly. It was really cool, but the side effects did start to add up. And I think like...

One of the things that I also enjoy seeing out of this is an increased support for community funds. So less about the bail funds for protesters, which are super important, but thinking into these communities of what can we do to raise money inside of the communities that are being over-policed to help those communities not, quote-unquote, need police. And that's a dynamic that I'd like to see emerge. I mean, whether I think our current politicians are going to get on board with that, That's a separate question entirely. And that's where I'm a big fan of not violence, but I'm a big fan of destruction in a certain way. I think looting is a political act. I don't believe that we should separate causing chaos in the streets, quote unquote, with forcing the issue. Because this idea that the only good way to protest is to manipulate the vision of Martin Luther King despite... the many readings that people haven't done of his, this idea that, you know, Oh, well, if you guys were just sitting down whispering, then nothing would be happening to you. It's just false. It's like the police are out there. They want to fight. Like they love this shit. I mean, the scene was also murdered. Yeah. I mean, seeing the, seeing the cops with like full on hard ons, like joking around each other and shit is really insane. Like, I don't know why that shocks me so much. I understand that's, like, to be expected. But every time I see that in a video or in the background of a video, it's just like, you're right, they love this shit. Like, and that is so problematic. Yeah, they've been the same the whole time, but they're just mask off now. It's crazy. Well, I mean... In a way. I feel like the mask never really... I mean, once you have, like... i mean i i've have so many run-ins with police skateboarding or whatever where it's like you can see it in their face how much they want a reason and i mean that's like that's something they say give me a reason yeah you know where it's like their hands are already reaching and it's like dude i'm a fucking kid trying to kickflip this stair set dude like i'm not even trying to hurt anybody and you're already out here like reaching for the baton like i don't know so my so my thing my thing is like i think we can imagine a world without police i think

The more that we get a widespread movement of people truly using their imagination to think about the ways the world can be different, that's what's going to be useful. What kind of fight do you think is going to need to happen for a situation like that to happen? Because I don't really see Whitey being on board with that for any time soon. I think the sustained movement is a big part of that. Not letting the pressure off, you know, right now, I think all politicians everywhere are trying to figure out a quote unquote solution. You know, Barack Obama gives his little address and is like, you know, for what for as much as good as he might have done in talking and everything that he said, I think there is a there's a larger purpose to him coming out and speaking. There's a larger purpose to. the few Democratic leaders that have come out and spoke, there's a purpose to them speaking, and that's to quiet everyone down. The Illuminati told him to go hit good on Zoom. I mean, listen, I don't want to turn this into an Illuminati podcast. Too late? How do you know this isn't an Illuminati podcast already is the question. Yeah, Obama had to call in a big favor for Obama to go on Zoom. Zoom probably hit him up personally. The resolution is going to be wild. You want the HBO 5 series special? We got you. A lot of people wanted and needed or at least publicly said we need an Obama speech right now to kind of just put our minds at ease so we could go to sleep tonight type of thing. But I don't really think people got what they were hoping to get out of it. I mean, that's the definition of no justice, no peace. It's like, this isn't a momentary thing. I think the quarantine really is what, in my mind, elevated all this in everyone's worldview perspective or whatever. I was actually talking to a friend who said, I think the quarantine was the first time that white people have ever felt state suppression.

It's the first time that white people had to feel as aware of their, their selves and physical space, even remotely close to what black people feel. You know, like I go outside, I go to a store or whatever. I'm aware in a way that I don't think most white people are. And that I think is where a lot of the sort of guilt response comes from where it's like, Oh, finally they can sort of see what's going on here and what this sort of longstanding dynamic between black people and the police, black people in. the state feels like yeah i guess the energy now that i experience every time i go to whole foods is like i'm going into battle and tensions are very high and you have to you know watch your surroundings watch your back watch people around you well your behavior is believed right yeah and that's and that's probably on are you distance everything yeah i was i was literally at whole foods yesterday and this guy was not wearing a mask and he was refusing to saying he it was his right to not put it on unless an employee tells him to and you know screaming match just full full you know insanity going on and you know going to the supermarket is now the most stressful thing in the lives of white people today and they used to love it god damn it it used to be my literal favorite pastime and now i feel like i'm going into battle risking it all to to cop the arugula And that is a feeling that black people feel every time they go to the supermarket. Anyway, I mean, there was a good thread going on Twitter the other day of just like, you know, how many times have you left a store feeling like you stole something even though you didn't? Just because of the energy from everyone in the store around you. And that's the type of thing that like... For me, it's only when my girlfriend makes me go into the really expensive places and she doesn't buy anything. Yeah, it hangs over street market for no reason. Just no reason. Just no reason. There's just layers and layers and levels and levels of this, huh? Yeah, this is a fucking onion. I don't think we've cracked the surface. How does it feel to just watch all of white America have a giant collective...

whoa whoa moment of realization of what has been going on you know it you would think it would feel more you'd feel more like righteous righteousness about it or something like just justification like i wasn't crazy this whole time see you guys but it doesn't it doesn't really feel like it looks like that it feels more sad than anything you know because it's like yeah like welcome to hell here we are there's a sort of hopelessness too in everyone's response to this that in a lot of ways mirrors the hopelessness that i think at least for me as a black person feel where it's like yeah dude like i have i don't know what to tell you i don't you know there's all these pdfs going around google docs going around reading lists going around and it's like i don't think sending your dad a fucking france fanon book is gonna change anything you know because if he doesn't know by now will he ever like if these people who have spent their their lives like pillaging black culture don't realize by now that that's not that's not great I don't know. It doesn't feel like this moment necessarily changes anything. Yeah, I mean, nobody reads books now anyways. So, I mean, do we just take it to Netflix and podcasts and spread the message there? Everyone's saying, like, go watch 13th documentary. And it's a fantastic documentary. But it's another one of those things. It's a big ask for white people right now. yeah you know two hours whoa but you know even hey bro hey bro lord of the rings is two hours relax they love that shit but you know think of the controversy around the new york times 1619 project and it's like even after they won a pulitzer for it you know you've got you've got nationally syndicated magazine writers just up in arms oh this is this is you know we're teaching kids a historical fact etc and it's like You know, there's a real cognitive resistance to understanding issues of race that goes deeper than police brutality. It goes deeper than any of the issues that we talk about in general. And it's a spiritual issue, right? It's like so much of, you know, Chris, you grew up in the South. You definitely understand this to some degree. It's like when I think about Southern culture, no matter how diverse my background is from Houston, it's like Southern culture is rooted in a sense of like...

The white man is, is better. Oh, I mean, I just literally just talked about this before we called you because I'm in, I've been driving from New York to Atlanta and I'm in Charleston right now, which is obviously has a, uh, interesting to say the least background. Um, and yeah, the vibe is fucking weird. Like a guy said some wild shit to me today at the fucking gas station. You know what I mean? Because he thinks, because I'm a white dude with a shaved head and tattoos that I'm down for his cause, you know? Or that I agree with him, in theory. Like, it feels safe for him to talk to me like that. Right. And that is, yeah, it's just Southern shit, man. It really is. It's definitely, like, you know, white man shit. Like, we built this, it's ours, even though we didn't, and it's not. Right. And I think, I mean, even when you look at the police response, and this is something I've been thinking about a lot, is, like, I think the severity of the police response is because, as I was talking about earlier, it's like, they they're defending their legitimacy and they're defending it with, with all of their might. You know, it's like, they know that the moment that people really start to talk about shifting the dynamic in policing in America, that people will start to understand like, Oh, you guys are obsolete. We have never needed you. I think, yeah, I mean, no, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I, I, I, you know, I think that, and something that I've, I heard today and have thought about is that, you know, for a lot of people, equality is a very hard thing to wrap their head around because they think something will be taken away from them if it's given to someone else. In a lot of ways, it will. I mean, yes, but for the greater good. Right, right. And that's what becomes so weird about even just watching all this unfold on Instagram and everything. It's like, you know, you look at the masthead of every major magazine, you look at... you know, the people in positions of power. And it's like, if we had a truly equitable society where it was just like, oh, whoever is the best, whoever has the best ideas, the smartest, just is going to be the leader of, you know, whatever, I'm not going to name names, but whatever magazine, whatever company, those boardrooms would look dramatically different. So just like the police are sort of defending this position of legitimacy, like, as much as people want to kind of come out in favor of

oh, we support the black community. You know, so many brands have now come forward and be like, oh, we would be nothing without the influence of the black community, et cetera. But it's like, your boardrooms are still all white people. Your design teams are still all white people. So it's like, that's where, to me, it's like, this issue becomes a lot bigger where, you know, what does equality look like? And how do we get there without people really being willing to say, like, I'm going to take a step back? to admit that, you know, a lot of their influence isn't theirs. White people are going to have to realize that, you know, or be willing to make their life more difficult, you know, in order to improve that. Because as soon as the boardrooms are equally filled with all races, their life becomes harder. They have to watch what they say. They have to control and think about what they're saying before they open their mouths, where they didn't really have to do that before. Well, I mean, I don't even think it's so much about watching what you say. Like, look, I've had a lot of white people say off the wall shit to me and it doesn't, you know, you just, you just tell them they're wrong. I think it's more like it's the dynamics that exist in all of these industries. You know, it's like what happens to the buddy system of, Oh, I'm going to hire all my friends when now the boardroom is suddenly not all white people from Harvard or Yale or whatever. Now suddenly it's like, Oh, I'm going to hire my friends. There's nothing wrong with hiring your friends, but if all of your friends are white, then. Well, if the only people hiring their friends are white people, then that creates a problem. So all we need to do is just have some black friends, and that's a great starting point. Yeah, everyone just get one. At the very least. Thank you, Jeff, for being my friend. At the very least, yeah, just one. Jeff, we talk a lot on this show about the way the world of content and branding and all that stuff is changing and affected. How is everything being changed and affected right now at your job? I guess that's just a media outlet.

Well, yeah, my job's interesting. I mean, so Bustle bought Mike, I think about a year and a half or so ago. And so I came in very much on like the company and the brand is in a very much rebuilding stage or kind of redefining itself stage. The Bustle Agents. Bustle Digital Group. BDG, baby. And I think for us, it's been an interesting time because it's... I don't want to say it's a good thing, but the slate has truly been clean for everyone. I think we've seen a dramatic number of layoffs in the media industry. We've seen a dramatic number of companies closing in the media industry. We've also just seen a different dynamic emerge of what people care about and what people are thinking about. There's this whole existential crisis going on in the luxury market and what that means for the Vogue's and GQ's of the world. I think it's an interesting time to be rebuilding a media brand because everyone's kind of on the same page for once where what does the future look like and what does that mean for everyone? So in that way, it's been quite nice because we can position ourselves uniquely just because it's our first time positioning ourselves at all. It's exciting to have a clean slate. Yeah, I think for everyone. For everyone, it's exciting to have a clean slate, especially if you're kind of a newer... Are you, are you, what are you writing about right now? Do you feel compelled to write about things that are going on or, or what, what do you, where's your head at? I mean, with the news, it's like, you can't avoid it. I do feel, you know, shouts out to my team. Like I've read horror stories from people on the internet of being, feeling forced to kind of like sell their trauma for clicks. And I, I've never felt that way. You know, my team has been great. No one is really pushing me in one direction or the other. Again, you know, I said it earlier on here, I don't feel, you know, I'm not as educated as I could or should be on a lot of things. So I don't feel like I want to open my mouth to be like, well, here's my experience as a black guy. At the same time, like my head is definitely thinking a lot about this sort of white guilt thing. I think there are a lot of really strange dynamics emerging that I want to explore. I mean, something that has been happening in me is, you know, I'm single and like dating.

And it's a very weird thing to match with a non-black person on a dating app, and the first thing they want to talk about is the protest. Shit. Fuck, dude. That didn't even cross my mind. That is fucked up. It's weird. It's odd. Do you think that's the first talking point out of any match, depending on what race is going on? Or what race is being matched with what race? I think it hits different when it's from a black girl because what we're talking about isn't, it's just not as like... Loaded. I mean, what is it even like being on a dating app right now as the world is burning, period? I mean, it's stupid and I don't even like doing it. But, you know, everyone has their stress relief in one way or another. You're saying you match with the white chick. on fucking raya and before you can ask for the nudes before you before you can ask if i was on right i wouldn't be talking to you fucking class you have to have a you have to have a conversation you have to have a conversation about systemic racism before you can before you can get a flick just like oh it's well i mean you know maybe they feel like it's it's it's bad to not bring it up right i don't know why i keep defending becky here i'm sorry That is white guilt, though. I'm not really engaging, in all honesty. I'm only on the apps to see what's good and the confidence boost of being like, oh, what's up? You like me? But it's just something I've noticed. I think when the pandemic started, this was a conversation we had at work where I was like, I'm a cynic. I hate dating. I hate love. I'm mad. Damn. Jeff, you're still mad, though? Whatever, whatever. So, like, already, I'm just, like, I was, like, I don't want, like, why is everybody writing about dating in the pandemic? Fuck that. That's stupid. That's stupid. So, I was already kind of, like, in that headspace. So, for me, like, I intentionally kind of brought myself into this, like, space of, like, all right, let me, like, get on the fucking apps. Let me see what people are talking about, what's going on. You threw yourself into the deep end. I threw myself into the deep end. And this is recent, you know, in the past, like, two weeks. So, that, to me, is just the first thing that I noticed. It's, like.

these dating apps are already hella white where it's like for every like three black girls you find it's like 50 white chicks who like talk about how their dream trip is to africa god damn it it's like already wild already just like oh d like i hate this so so for now you're more you're more just using it as a way to just have any type of human human contact or confidence boost in general yeah it's really just the confidence because not being able to go out you know going to the bar just like having someone catch your eye at the bar or something that's your confidence boost oh that chick was feeling me whatever so to not have that for a couple of months i'm like all right let me like get back in my bag a little bit make sure i'm still like that's what i that's why i used to go to whole foods man i mean honestly though you got to write about it that's that to me is really interesting that you can't even like pursue someone romantically or even just like a jump off situation without having to have like an extremely serious conversation because the conversation is inherently serious. Like it's not, you can't really just like casually mention it the way you can COVID. You know what I mean? Right. But at the same time, like, you know, that's a hornet's nest. Cause it's like, I don't have to be talking to white girls with naps anyway. Sure. Sure. But. I mean, I'm not trying to be the guy out here. Like why I stopped dating white girls. Damn. I was going to, I was going to commission that, but okay. I guess, I guess, I guess we'll move in a different direction for you, Jeff. Uh, but that, that is really a, a extremely modern and timely issue though, that, that I feel like is, is probably more relatable than you realize. No, for sure. And there's, I mean, there's a way to tackle it. And like, that's just the first thing that I've thought about is like, oh, that's like an interesting dynamic. I mean, before all this, I was just interested in like what people are doing in quarantine. Like I wrote about rollerblading because I've just been seeing hella rollerbladers out. And I come from a skateboarding background and like, we hate rollerbladers, even though I feel like skateboarders out of any like subgroup or subculture have been like.

they're not perfect there's still a lot of shit to sort out within that community but I really have to say like out of anything I've seen from like any sport any music whatever like skateboarders have really been good at not holding on to sort of like old ideas even when it comes to it was only two years ago that like you know girl professional skaters was like a problem and then people would be like oh like they're not as good or whatever and then within a year it's like You don't even hear that anymore. You know, that's not even a conversation. There's an HBO show about girls skateboarders. You know, it's like things I think move faster in that world. Yeah, it's kind of the only mainstream sport that is just like a direct reflection of, you know, current teen or young, you know, just youth, youth attitude and spirit and progressiveness. Right. But then on the flip, I've been seeing all these rollerbladers around and it was really interesting to me because. I think it was last summer, I was just walking around Red Hook and someone had threw out a bunch of books and I found this book. It was called The Complete Blader. It's super silly. I think it came out in 1991 or something. Prime Blade time, though. That's like rollerblading era. The Complete Blader? Yeah, The Complete Blader. What was the guy's name? I'll look up his name in a second. It was actually Virgil. Virgil wrote it. Who knew? You got to talk about Virgil in a second. We'll talk about Virgil in a second. Did the quarantine turn you into a rollerblade sympathizer? I would call myself a sympathizer. Damn, that's great. You want to talk about real growth? Yeah. It's just interesting to me to see. I think for the past, like, three or four years, we've seen a lot of, like, quote, unquote, alternative modes of transportation take off. You got, like, the boosted boards and the weird scooters and the one-wheel thing. Boosted board's more offensive than blights. The boosted board is the most offensive product ever created. But it's funny to me, like, that rollerblading is kind of having this, like, weird moment. And it makes sense in a lot of ways because I think aesthetically it...

harkens back to the 90s and to the late 80s and obviously you know everything moves in that cycle of like of course kids now are like trying to do the sort of like cyberpunk look and rollerblading is like a perfect part of that and i'm not gonna front like it like do your thing it doesn't look it looks kind of sick like i'm never gonna do it you can't flip it so i don't get it but like if you're out there crushing on the rollerblade it looks kind of tight like i'm not even gonna i'm not gonna hit on me damn you change bro I mean, I guess I would say, you know, back in the 90s, we did really have it so good that the only thing we had to complain about was rollerbladers. And now, you know, the problems in our world are so much larger that it's insensitive to even mention a rollerblader so far that you are now a rollerblade stan. Now, when I think of the word ally, I'm going to think of Jeff and rollerblading. I'm a rollerblade ally. Thank you for that, Jeff. Thank you for giving us some light-hearted fun. We won't forget what you said, dog. You fucked up this time. We would never forget. You said you wanted to talk about Virgil. Okay. Virgil, a lot of people... were very initially upset about seeing a screenshot of him only donating $50 when he obviously has a lot of money. It's about him capping for freeware. I'm just retelling the tale of how it started, and then that sort of opened up the wound and ripped the band-aid of everything else that people wanted to speak on. Virgil's whole thing, the moment this started happening, Did y'all see the screenshot of him? He posted that he called Timothee Chalamet. I did see that. Big Tim's going to get to the bottom of it. How is that your instinct? Black people are getting killed by the police. Yo, we need to call Timothee Chalamet right now. I will agree that that is an interesting choice. I don't really understand it myself.

The stuff with round two is more confusing to me. Do you think Timothy was like, yo, dog, dog, dog, delete that, delete that. I can't have that on my, I can't have that on my IG right now. I mean, the stuff with round two to me is definitely like a big part of it because it's like, I don't really know that man like that. I know that he was like loving the national guard pulling up to LA, which is a pretty fried. yeah that's no we don't we don't fuck with the i mean on this side we don't fuck with cops i don't fuck with the military i don't fuck with the national guard i'll fuck with any of that shit like like it's just it people show it's so it's just so interesting though that you would just like we all would assume he wouldn't be down with that because what he likes sneakers and resells clothing like it doesn't make you know what i mean well he would yeah he would have never been down with that or posted that if That wasn't going to directly affect the health of his brick-and-mortar business. Supreme on Bowery, the big store, got cleaned out the other night. Oh, see, I keep hearing different things about that, but it's true. It did get cleaned out. There's a video of it. The kids busted through, got everything. Damn. If I see the Gons, if I see the Gons, if I see the big Gons piece, I'll let you know. Someone in the Bronx has a big Gons piece right now. They hit the Uber that night. But, you know, for all the problems Supreme has, you know, Carlisle Group, et cetera, et cetera, it's like, you didn't have James Jebbia coming up on Instagram or giving a statement to the New York Times talking about, we're really disappointed that streetwear community. Because it's like, these are kids. You charge us to the game. You've got to charge us to the game. And his whole statement about, Virgil's statement about this isn't what Streetwear is about. The thing that really irked me was if any of my friends would have tried to loot Supreme back in the day, we would have caught a 40 ounce to the head. And it's like this dumb romanticization of an era that A, I don't know to what degree he was a part of that. That picture from GQ of him doing an ollie with...

his laces messed up really has me thinking a type of way but beyond that it's like what about low heads what about like the whole culture of like racking shit he like he runs like he's he's obsessed now with like graffiti culture doing the arcterics like fake whatever running the iraq gang shit and it's like graffiti culture is built on stealing spray paint bro like it's literally the it's literally the backbone of the culture and so it's like to talk as though like you are this like ambassador or expert on like subculture even though you have so quickly and so earnestly sold everything about it to the fashion industry and then to turn around and make and make this like grandiose statement of like this is why i think streetwear is dead it really just it really just irks me and it's like beyond i mean obviously then the race element of it where it's like bro there are bigger things to talk about right now than like your thoughts on streetwear like I just don't get it. I could go on and on. The clothes, I don't get it. I don't understand why for years people have just been gassing this man up. There are better black designers. I'll just end it there. There are better black designers. Damn, Jeff. Bro, I really thought you liked to drip, but I guess not. I'm kind of surprised. Yeah, miss me with the off-white belt. No, but I think that the real... The money stuff, I agree. I think it was clear he was matching a donation, and that's what that thing has become. And this is why I think that can sometimes be problematic, is shit like this happens. And it's like, did you really think this guy didn't donate more money than $50? Of course he did. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think that's really part of the conversation. I think that just became a caveat for people to express their frustrations with his entire presentation, you know? No, no, I think so too. I think so too. The Louis show in Paris where it was like New York in the 80s and like, you know, there's a great New Yorker article where like Doreen St. Felix does such a good job like not dissing him but dissing him where it's like...

oh, there's a chair, but he made sure to knock it over because that's New York. And it's like, really, bro? I do think, I mean, I just think that to talk, I mean, yeah, I just, you know, streetwear in this time is the most unnecessary conversation you could possibly have. And I think that, to me, that's the unnecessary part of the whole thing. I think the rest of it is obviously... Just up to the user. You know what I mean? But I think it can be universally agreed that talking about streetwear right now is not the point. Just not the look. That's the bottom line. Maybe Virgil, if he's been racking designs and cultures and everything like that and reselling it to young people, maybe one day he will give that money back Robin Hood style. Taking his money from these big corporations, selling it back to the kids, and then using that money to do something more powerful and better, hopefully, I guess. I mean, yeah. If you're going to live or appropriate the entire graffiti ethos, that would be a nice ending. That's such an interesting thing about Supreme, right? Especially if you live in New York and even vaguely associate with skateboarders at all, it really starts to become clear how many of these kids. in one way or another are in that office. And like, there's a lot to be said about the degree to which, you know, how much money certain people are making versus other people, what the designers look like, et cetera. But it's like, when you talk about quote unquote, the culture and giving back to quote unquote, the culture, like you can do that without, you can do that quietly. You can do that where the kids know what's good and like, that's all that matters. Which is a hundred percent more important. To me, in my mind. Even a brand like Noah, which is a relatively younger brand, it's the same thing. It's the amount of kids who are in the street skating from whatever background that they put on. The amount of kids who are making art, who are shooting photos. That's what the whole streetwear culture is about. It's not about these dumb t-shirts or whatever, man. It's not about the fact that your homie had a store in Chicago. It's about...

the young kids who come to new york or come go to la or whatever from their backwoods background or whatever because they love skateboarding because they hate their parents because no one understood them where they're from and like they found a community and a family that they can like vibe with that's what it's that's what it's all about like to be out here during a global pandemic during a crisis of policing talking about your friend's store and how important it was to you not even to like the kids now but to you is just like I can't back it. I can't back it. Well, people, I mean, the number one crime of social media during this stuff is making it about you. That's the number one. That's the number one crime across the board that I've seen where it's like, I don't know how, I just don't know how you don't realize you're doing that. You know what I mean? But that to me is like, is just the real issue in so many ways. And I mean, that's what, but social media has taught us that it is all about us. So you can't unlearn that in a week because there's bigger fish to fry. And I think that that is – besides the lack of empathy, I think that's probably the number one thing that people are dealing with as far as like what to do on social media and public facing in general. Yeah, and I think people – that used to happen all the time and people would just sort of – let it slide or not comment anything about it or gossip amongst their friends when they saw some bullshit like that going on and now it's all being called out. Influencers are being held to be transparent now and that is changing everything. There was a really big push when all this started and it kind of made me uncomfortable and I've had to check myself on my own views on this but you saw a lot of people being like so-and-so was silent so so-and-so hasn't said anything and i just don't know like to me celebrities saying anything especially if it's not you know informed and educated just sucks the air out of the conversation from people who do know what they're talking about and who should be elevated and whose voices should be elevated so it's to me like

everyone was so thirsty so early on to get, uh, to get a statement from every black musician, you know, Don Lemon went on CNN talking about where's Drake, where's Kendrick Lamar, where's so-and-so. And like, What about the thousands and thousands of people who have been doing this work for decades? Why aren't they elevated to the same point as Beyonce or Jay-Z or whoever? All Beyonce has to do is retweet those people to her giant audience, but she's afraid of doing that because she could also lose millions of fans by sharing those views. that way of thinking and that way of being able to protect yourself and just sort of release a you know a meaningless statement about things is is kind of gone and you kind of have to take a side now even if that means you're going to lose lose followers right which i guess is one small positive i just i don't want to hear any celebrity who hasn't done the work and if you haven't done the work and you feel compelled to say something then like signal boost some of these people who are doing the work because even for me as a writer it's like I wake up every day realizing how little I know. I just wish more people would think that way. Welcome to our lives. Every journey begins with a step, guys. It's true. Hopefully all of these celebs will realize that signal boosting somebody with a strong, powerful message, you can do that and you will still wake up with millions of dollars in your bank account tomorrow and life's going to be fine. The money really isn't going anywhere. It really isn't. I also just think that, like, I mean. And also, you might even end up making more money. More. That's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. I think for some people, you can do the right thing, and it can also be financially good, and you have nothing to worry about. You'll lose some fair weather fans and galvanize fans for life at the same time. And being on the right side of a cause feels good.

You know, like, like I never use Instagram store. I've never reposted Instagram story in my life ever until a couple of days ago. Very surprised to see that from me. I was like, Chris Black is very awkward. But that's what I mean, though. It's because like I actually think about what's going on. And sure, it took me longer than it should have. But I actually think about what's going on. I'm like, what the fuck are you worried about? You idiot. Like there's people dying and you're like, oh, I don't know about this. It's just crazy. It's crazy that. I let it get that far, but I think I'm not alone in that, you know, where it's like, I'm overthinking this stuff. And it's not about offending anyone for me because I don't really care about that, but it's just like, it's doing something new and saying something that, that I don't, you know, it's something that, like you said, I don't really know how to say it myself. So amplifying someone who does is what I could do. That's what everyone should think about. Cause I think like, it's like how after COVID started. the pandemonium around droplets and joggers and this yeah yeah it was like suddenly the whole world was like epidemiologists and it's like let's let real experts talk and just everyone settle down no i mean 100 100 like i i think that at least at least for us i think we have the podcast we're able to talk about it which is more interesting and easier to learn from than than like tweets or or instagram stories um but but Yeah, the amount of experts. Social media has made a lot of experts. That's one of its many pitfalls. Speaking of, Jeff, what do you think is going to happen with COVID? What's the future of COVID looking like? Is COVID already canceled? What's COVID? I forgot about her. COVID is canceled in most of America at this point. I went to COVID's hood and they did not know. it's crazy. Do you think, do you think it's just, are we just fucked or were we overreacting the whole time? I mean, I'm not going to say I was like a COVID shooter because these killed a hundred thousand people. It, you know, it definitely was ravaging communities. But I think when you look at like the, the areas in which we focused, right, there was a whole week where the only thing anyone wanted to talk about was people in the park.

people jogging without a mask on. I think there's so much focus on things that really didn't hone in on the specifics of the issue. Yeah. But now it's hard for people to even understand what's going on. It's like Cuomo let nursing homes basically just become like death camps. You know, it's like a concerted effort of containing the virus would have prioritized certain communities and certain demographics that are most at risk as opposed to this like blanket, throw everything at the wall because we don't know what the hell we're doing. and hope for the best, which is basically what our policy has been up to now. So I don't know. I don't know what the, I mean, the future is going to be weird. I was actually spending some time with a restaurant guy who, he does the, the white, the new white restaurant. And in that world, people seem to just feel like dining bars, clubs, that whole, that whole dynamic of existence is over. And it's going to take time for people to really realize that it's over, but it's over. I, I don't share that view because I like to feel happiness in my life. But it's very possible. Do you think they're talking about that in America specifically or the entire world? Because I think there are a lot of parts of the world that have gone back to normal. And they are in the club right now. Are they in the club? In Asia, yeah. And Europe kind of doesn't really give a fuck anymore. They had an outbreak in South Korea after reopening. I mean, if Bear Clines open, I'm going to catch a flight. Bear Clines, interesting. Are you a techno head? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, guys. Jeff, thanks for being here. I find out now that you're a member of the EDM community, now that the show is ending. I don't know if EDM is the right word. Well. EDM is the term we use. Proper EDM, not this current David Guetta EDM. I saw you repost that David Guetta MLK thing. I thought that was big of you, Jeff. Don't do me like that. Can you signal boost some DJs, producers, musicians that you're a fan of? Not black ones, just in general. I just want to know who you're into.

Well, I got to start with some people of color. So Turtle Bug, he's from New York. I think he's in Detroit now. Coolest guy I like. Shout out Gauster Lustwerk. Love him. Big fan. What the fuck are you guys talking about? PLO Man. We're naming black DJs, Chris. Yeah, well, now there's some white guys. PLO Man is great. I think he's from Canada. There's this guy from Montreal that I just got into. I think his name is like a priori. He's got this record called On Animbus. That's crazy. Damn, that record crazy. That record go crazy. On Animbus. Yeah. Like the cloud. Yeah. Damn, that's a really bad name. Shut up. Shut up. Priori. Shut up, Chris. Yeah, I've been trying to get Chris to listen to some intelligent dance music for decades. Intelligent dance music. All I do is listen to intelligent guitar music. Look, Squarepusher is the only thing Chris is into. This Priori artwork is very interesting. Okay. Yeah, run that. That's the intro music. All right. I will. Uh-oh. Damn it. Well, since he's white, I can take some money out of his pocket and play his music without giving him a cut. There you go. Jason, once again on the front lines. Run that, run that. All right, bro. Jeff, tell them where they can find you on the internet. I'm on Instagram under my name, Jeffy Haza. I also make a magazine called Secret on the side. You can find that on Instagram, Secret Magazine. You can find me on mike.com slash culture. And Chris Black had a little piece in there, right? We got the Chris Black by line in there. Please support a black owned business by buying the issue that I'm in. That'd be great. I must have felt good editing Chris's work. I could only imagine. Oh, yes. Very, very timely. Very timely, Chris. Well, hey, look, this is a while ago. Give me a break. Thank you, Jeff. Honestly, a lot of insight here. And I think it was important for us to talk to you and kind of hear where you're coming from. And I think people will enjoy it.

Cool. Thank you guys. Hey, of course, man. We'll talk to you soon, Jeff. All right. All right. Later, fam.