021. - Tavi Gevinson

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Oh! Alix! Jason says, what's up? What's up, Jason? She said, what's up? And she said, stop talking shit. Wish I could. Hey, Jason, how are you? Oh, I'm great, I'm great. I've been doing an extreme intermittent fast all week. Oh, you're on your Emily Oberg, 18 hours? More, more, more, bro. How could you do more? I'm doing one meal a day. Damn. I'm just eating dinner. You've seen results, right? Definitely. I've just found that that seems to work the best for me. I just eat a nice, satisfying din. Have a little dessert maybe. And then that's it. I don't really get hungry at all until maybe around 3 p.m. And if I just eat an early dinner, maybe around 6, I'm good. That's pretty cool. It is cool. If you don't eat at all, you kind of remove the possibility of having a snacky or a bad boy lunch. Oh, God. I've had the same thing for lunch every day for the entire quarantine. Which is? eggs salad and a rice cake eggs salad and a rice cake what kind of like a like a scrambled egg scrambled egg yeah uh and then uh arugula spinach with like a light dressing maybe some walnuts or some pita chips in there and then and then a rice cake with either avocado or um uh almond butter and berries and it i mean this does sound nice but it doesn't get terribly old terribly quick you're you're fine with eating the same thing every day yeah i think it's just easy because like i i mean you know everybody's busy alex is busy and like you know just there's only so much you can do don't bring alex up don't don't blame her Because I can't eat the same thing for lunch two days in a row or it'll drive me crazy. I have to eat something wildly different every day, always mixing it up. If I eat Italian one day, I have to eat something Asian the next day and then American and then Mexican. I got to go all over the globe. That's why you're a fucking food person and I'm an exercise person. But I'm also exercising. That's the thing.

I know. I mean, look, I love to see you glowing up. I mean, you still won't look as good as I do when the quarter's over, but I like a little healthy competition. That's true. We are both on a journey, and that's okay. I love it. We're doing it together. It's the How Long Gone Challenge. Hashtag How Long Gone Challenge. How little can you eat and how good can you look coming out of the quarantine? But, I mean, the one thing that I do have you beat in is that Cali tan, bro. I know. I know. You look good. I will. I'll give you that. I'm not fishing for a compliment. I'm just saying it helps everything when you don't look extra pasty. First of all, I never look extra pasty because luckily I'm just blessed, but I understand what you're saying. Blessed with what? White skin? Yeah, but I have natural flavor that I think comes out in my pigmentation. I think that's called... I think that's just like a rash of some sort. Yeah, it's eczema, actually. I'm sorry. I just talked to my doctor. Yeah, talk to your doctor. Yeah, so we have our guest today, Tavi. She's been on, you know, she's been the, I guess, how would you describe her? I mean, she's literally been a person of note since she was 12 years old. We really just watched her grow up her whole life on the internet. We really have watched her grow up. She had Rookie, which was a very popular website, and then turned into a print publication. And now she's an actress and a writer, and she's been on Broadway. And she was in that great movie with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and James Gandolfini a few years ago. A few years ago, RIP to the big dog. I still don't want to talk about Sopranos, you fucking nerds. She's just generally great and smart and fun to talk to. Not for nothing, Chris, but you got to check out The Sopranos, all right? Shut up, dude. If I hear one more, shut up. Fucking Sopranos. Dude, it's like people need to calm the fuck down. It's a great show, I get it, but do I need to see a picture of those fat fucks every day? I don't think I do.

It is weird because I spent my whole life sort of in the same boat as you. And then in the quarantine, I think a lot of people are picking it up finally. Like all the people who were always like, you know, maybe one day I'll watch it. I think now is the time where everyone is straight up watching The Sopranos. It's kind of odd. Well, I mean, if it's all available to stream and you have nothing to do and you want to be part of the conversation, it makes sense. Yeah, but I mean, the conversation of a show that is from literally like 2000, like the year 2000, you know, it's like a 20 year old show and it is still as hot as ever. But like why out of all the, you know, there's hundreds or thousands of amazing shows that have happened in the last 20 years. I mean, I guess The Sopranos is just that good. Well, that's true. Definitely. Because I was a Mad Men stan, number one Mad Men forever. I couldn't get into that either. And now that I'm re-watching The Sopranos with Carolyn, I'm like, shit, is Sopranos better than Mad Men? It's fucking me up. I mean, that's tough. I'm glad I don't watch Legacy TV and have these kind of problems. Yeah, so what's going on on Below Deck? Well, right now it's actually Summer House and Vanderpump. Okay. So, I mean, I'll tell you what's going on. Very cool, very cool. It's the same thing that's always going on, the three pillars of reality TV, drinking, fucking, and fighting. Okay? That's what makes reality TV the best genre. These shows with, like, scripts and these long-winded arcs, like, boring. Yeah, but all of those shows. with those boring arcs and scripts also feature fucking drinking and fighting just like the reality television the but the reality television they're just sort of improvising they're and they're uglier usually so i like it more they're uglier makes it feel more real makes it feel more real to me okay good good i mean i we all love that

Reality TV is a hill that Chris Black will die on. I think it's a cool factor about you as a person. I mean, I watch other stuff too, but I just think that it's perfect. We love to watch versions of ourselves unravel on the screen. Versions of ourselves. Speak more on that, Chris. Well, I just think that that's the thing about these people. You think they're so below you, but the reason you're so captivated by it is because you do see elements of everyone in them. That's why it works so well. I'm a fat little bitch just like these people on TV. I would say you're like a Snooki type. You know what I mean? That's exactly who I was thinking about when I said the phrase fat little bitch. When I think Oompa Loompa, I think TJ. Oh my God. Yeah, I'm like a long Snooki. It sounds like a type of fish I might catch. Yeah, I went out today, put something on my rod, and I caught me a long snooki. A couple long snooki are biting right now. Why don't you bite them? Okay, this is dumb as hell. Let me call Tabby. Okay, bye. Bye. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian. stateside with kai and carter this is covering a lot of our bases jason it's a it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince.

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handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code How long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code. How long with the task rabbit app or at task rabbit.com. I've literally nothing else to do. I was hoping that's what you're going to say. Well, what's going on with you? Have you left the house today? Um, no, I'm, um, I have not really been leaving. I've been like going to bed late, waking up late, maybe taking a walk around like 5pm. How late is late? Uh, like going to bed around 1 or 2, waking up 10 or 11. That's pretty late. That's what I call park life. Yeah, exactly. I'm the opposite. I'm going to bed at 10, getting up at 6.30, feeling bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Wow. Yeah, I would love to. We get it. You're sober. right yeah yeah i keep i feel like guilty about it but now the guilt has gotten really boring so i'm just like okay that's what i'm doing i love when guilt becomes boring you can just move on freely that's amazing i know i'm free to just be a sloth now but you're but you're i i assume that you are a person who regardless of what time you're waking up is still getting work done for sure so you're not like just a total

Fuck off, right? You would think. You would think. It's been a mix. Some days I'm just like, this is a lost day, much like a lost weekend. Yes, yes. And that's okay. That is okay. I keep reading all these articles from important publications telling me not to put pressure on myself to produce during this time. So true. But I don't know what else to focus on. What am I supposed to do then? I don't even watch TV during the day. I'm a good boy. I don't know what to do. Well, you are creating content. That's true. And I do think, don't get me wrong, I think that is very important, especially in times like these. Especially now, yeah. Like doing things you wouldn't normally do? Yeah. I baked bread. Wow, you've really gone full quarantine. Yeah. How'd that bread come out? I did one banana bread. It was actually a success. Banana bread, delicious. Are you normally a cook? No, definitely not. I like that about you. Me neither. Yeah, that makes me... feel better like we're really not doing uh I don't know if I have like a real meal like a well-balanced meal I feel very accomplished um but we're still ordering like takeout once or twice a week yes I would I'm where are you are you in Brooklyn um no I live in Manhattan Oh, thank God. I'm sorry I judged you. I'm sorry I misjudged you. I really am. I'm sorry. I don't know why. Strike one, Chris. I'm seeing these beautiful crown moldings, and I just assumed it was like Brooklyn Heights. Oh, my God. You can see my ceiling. Somewhere chic. I mean, it wasn't going to put you in Williamsburg, for God's sake. But, you know, like, what part of this? Are you downtown? No, I'm in Harlem. I used to live in Brooklyn Heights, actually. Is that the famous apartment?

No, the famous apartment was like Fort Greene, downtown Brooklyn. I've lived in five different apartments in New York. How long have you lived in New York total? Almost six years. Oh, that's a lot of moving, actually. Yeah, just different, like with Brooklyn Heights, our landlord wanted to live in our apartment. And then I like waged a private campaign against him in my mind because like his nephew was living in the boiler room and I was like, he's going to take over our apartment. And then we had to move. And then there was the famous apartment where I like was, you know, being paid to live there as part of an ad campaign. So a range of living in New York sounds awesome, guys. Yeah, you can't afford the rent, so you post about it on Instagram. Honestly, though, I think that the free apartment thing was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. I have to be honest with you. I forgot about it, and then I remembered it when I was kind of mentally prepping for this episode. And I live on the other side of the country. We've never met, and even I knew about that apartment. You know, somebody got their marketing dollars. But that's what I'm saying. I think if people are posting about things for much fucking less, rent is actually something you need. It's a necessity. Yeah, I mean, it's disingenuous to say I couldn't afford rent. Sure, sure. But it's nice to not pay it. It's nice to not pay it. Yeah, I mean, as a multi-hyphenate, your income is often cobbled together from different sources. Yes. We can relate, sweetie. We cobble. Oh, we cobble. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. I'm glad you think it was cool.

I do think it was cool because I just think that there's a certain amount of like honesty to it. I don't know. I just feel like it's like, yeah, guys, this is what I'm fucking doing. I would be more jealous of that than judgmental. Like that's the ultimate grift to me. It's like, yo, you're like, I'm, I'm truly using my platform to benefit myself in a way that no one else has figured out. Cause I've, I've, I've never seen that before and I have not seen that since. So you're a grounder. You broke ground. I broke ground. Thank you. I'm a pioneer. It was also cool because it seemed, you seemed not above doing something like that, but that is more of a, you know, maybe like a DJ Khaled might do something like that and it makes sense. But for you, it was like, oh, this is something to take note of. Yeah, exactly. You thought she was highbrow. Did you labor over the decision though? Or were you like, yeah, fuck it. This is crazy. Fucking dog, let's sign. Fucking dog, I'm signing. I mean, I met with what, you know, it was put together by like a marketing company. So I talked to them a lot. But it's also like, I think I talked to a lot of friends about it. But I... Let's see. It feels so long ago now. Also, if you're sick of talking about this, let us know. But also, it's maybe more interesting than bread baking right now. Who knows? Yeah, it might be. No, I'm not sick of it. I think it's kind of nice to be able to have an experience like that. enough time goes by that you can kind of reflect or write about it. Um, so I kind of enjoy, I enjoy, um, jumping in with that, but yeah, I think it did feel like I had seen other types of spawn con and I knew that like, it would seem off brand to some of my followers, but I was also like, um, it felt worth.

You looked in the mirror and said, I'm going to do me. And then you just signed the paper. God damn it. Out loud. Yeah, exactly. And sometimes we have to respect that as a culture. We have to respect when a young, powerful woman does her thing. If you can't do you, then what can you do? Exactly. Exactly. Do you consider yourself that type of experimental person? You know, a wacky idea like that, you give it a shot just to see what happens? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't, what I wanted to happen was that I would live there and get paid. So it wasn't like, ooh. It's not that wacky. It makes a hell of a lot of sense. Jason, it's not wacky. It's called the transaction. Well, I mean, you know in LA, you've heard of like the Grove and the Americana, I'm assuming. Oh yeah. They're like outdoor shopping malls and then they have apartment complexes above it that you, that people will live in and buy and pay money to. And I always thought like if, if somebody offered me that, you know, for a year, live, live inside this mall for a year, would you do that? And it sounds like a very cool experiment that I would want to do, but most people might disagree with that. Yeah. I mean, I talked to some people who are like really private and, or not on social media and they thought it was like, they were like, doesn't it feel weird? Like I think to them it would have felt, it seemed like a violation of privacy. Because you were giving out your home address to the world as a person of celebrity. It was a hashtag. It was a hashtag. No, I mean, obviously I was commodification of like my home life. And, like, I think since then, the way I feel about sharing, you know, even, like, the inside of my apartment now, like, has changed. Meaning you're less comfortable with it? Yeah, it's also, like, that was just my place and this is, I live with my boyfriend and that changes it a little, too, in terms of feeling, like, just wanting it to feel sort of off limits. But also now.

With all this at-home content that's kind of gone out the window. Yeah, this is your creation studio now. You have nowhere to hide. This is my stage. This is the stage. This is my stage. Yeah, I've seen the inside of every SNL cast member's house over the last two weeks. I know. I love. And that's like the most interesting part, isn't it? Yeah, is you're like, okay, who's New York? Who's LA? Who's at home? It kind of seems like most of the cast live in L.A. within five minutes of me. I can sort of pinpoint where they live, which is really weird. You could photobomb. Oh, I'm thinking of much worse. But it's weird to be like you're a person on TV and you're shooting video on national television of like, here's what the front door of my house looks like. And if you... Or a person who wants to get at me, here's how you do it. That's kind of wild. Right. Yeah. I guess they're putting a lot of faith in... I don't know. I mean, my friend who's on it, Chloe, she and my other friend Jake lived together and she was filming around the neighborhood. And then they said their neighbors were so happy that their houses were on. SNL. Damn, that's fucked up. That's crazy. But I mean, I guess as a person who truly loves SNL, like I watch it every week since I was a kid. Yeah. I wouldn't be excited if my house was on it. I'd only be excited if I was on it with a speaking role. I think they should aim higher. Yes, exactly. This house looks just like every other house. Chris Black is willing to host, but that's where it ends. Yeah, I'm willing to host, and if a musical guest has a part for me, like a harmony for me to sing, I will step in. But I'm not just giving up my house. That's crazy. Listen, people's standards are so low right now. No one's trying to get famous on SNL. Yeah.

Do you like living in New York? Do you think you're a lifer? I think so. I mean, I definitely don't want to live anywhere else in the foreseeable future. I love living here. I mean, it's weird now because I'm getting texts from people I haven't talked to in truly 10 years that are like... Hey, here it's really bad in New York. Which is nice, like the thought that counts, but it's like, it's just, there's this disconnect because it's a very abstract. It feels abstract being in an apartment and being, you know, it's not like there's chaos out in the streets. They're hoping for some horror porn type of information from you. Exactly. There's blood everywhere. I've eaten, I've eaten beans for three weeks and seen two dead bodies. It's crazy. But did you, did you grow up in Chicago or like outside of Chicago? Outside in a suburb called Oak Park. Did you ever live in the city as like an adult or did you go straight to New York? Okay. Well, speaking of short term pre-furnished apartments, I, When I graduated high school, I was doing a play at a theater in Chicago where they put up the two other cast members who were, like, in from out of town. They put them up in this, like, pre-furnished apartment building kind of by the theater. And they put me up there, too, for the summer. kind of corporate, um, uh, anonymous looking apartment in the city of Chicago, but it was like in a very, um, contained what, like, I don't feel like I lived in Chicago cause I was just, I don't know, in this like high rise and then like going to the theater and then going back. That's a, I find theater to be very intense schedule wise.

Yeah, it's absurd. It's taking a toll on Chris, personally. It's actually, you know, I give and I give to the stage. It's a taxing art. It's a taxing art. Well, no, because we had Jeremy O'Harris on the show. And just talking to him about it was really eye-opening because he broke down how much money you make and how it all works. And I'd never really understood that before. But it just seems like a really... difficult thing to do just the amount of shows that you're doing it seems like physically and emotionally just depleted yeah i mean it's weird because like it's weird to be like oh it's emotionally taxing to pretend to be in pain but sometimes you're channeling your real pain if you're a true actor Yeah, if you're really an actor. But it feels so ridiculous to say that it's demanding or exhausting, but it is. The mood can be... I've done shows that are really sad, and the mood backstage is just bad, and people get easily... like it affects them well you know some people some people leave it all on the stage and some people don't yes i guess that's the that's the difference like um uh also also have you seen hamilton just out of curiosity I'm so glad you asked me that. Yeah, I saw it a few years ago. Because that's a play that I know? Yeah. As a man who loves theater, Hamilton didn't do much for me. I meant to ask Jeremy O. Harris about Hamilton, but I felt like the window never really presented itself. I mean, but you've done TV and movies and shit. Do you prefer theater, or is it just like your first love? Very cool question. What? I actually want to know because it just seems so hard. It doesn't pay very much. So I don't get it. I know. I will say like the. It's like podcasting. It is like theater is the podcasting of the performing arts. I would agree. Thank you. Yes, it's true. I guess like, I mean, I am more experienced doing theater and like feel.

you know, a part of like a community here around doing it. And I love the routine and like living in New York and being at my apartment and going to do the show and coming back. And like all of that actually works well for me. And I just haven't done enough of, like I've enjoyed whatever other on camera work I've done. You just don't like, I don't know. You get so, if a play is not super sad and everyone doesn't hate each other, you can get really close to your cast in a way that like, just is not, it's like summer camp and it's not really possible with other, but I don't know. People say that about movies. I just haven't had that experience. I mean, I feel like if you do anything on location for, you know, three to six months, it could probably start to feel like that depending on the group of people. Right. Yeah, that's true. But away from home and in another. in like a new place with these other people yes that's how affairs start in hollywood from what i've understood um yeah you know like brad and angelina are on set they're in australia and things just happen you know it got out of their control it's out of their control mr and mrs smith Yes, I believe so. I don't know if it was actually Australia that made that up, but yes, it was that movie. Sparks were flying, I saw. Sparks were flying on and off camera, is what I was told. But do you find that doing a podcast together as well? Yes. It's a terrible summer camp where I'm on the bottom bunk and Jason's on the top and he won't stop bullying me. I've been cheating on my girlfriend this whole time we started the podcast, yeah. Yeah, now that you point out. No, I mean, Jason and I have been friends for years and years, so I do think that doing this helps us stay in touch. But, I mean, we talk all the time anyway, but I think when you have a focus to it, it does make the relationship different. You know, a shared goal is always fun to have with a friend and someone that you can, like, respect and count on. Right, yeah. That's why my friend and I do weekly gratitude lists.

Go on. Wow. Yeah, continue. Tell me about this G list. What's the G list? That sounds like a goop thing. Continue. Yeah, it is. It's like you write down, we've been doing it for two years and we email each other once a week and it's like, I'm grateful for, I mean, now it's all like, I'm grateful for like my basic survival, but. I have all my teeth still. But it is like a byproduct of it besides. practicing gratitude is that it's like a way to keep in touch and know what's going on with each other even if we haven't been able to talk I'm like one of my greatest qualities and there's only a few is really staying in touch like I'm really good at communicating like you and I are basically gonna be friends now for the rest of your life whether you want to want me to or not so I apologize now but I do think When there's work involved, because I've always worked with my friends in some way, I think that feels really natural to me. I'm always drawn to that because I can't work for the fucking man. That's always a risky thing, going into biz with your friends. I've had it go wrong many times. It went very wrong once, but I was young enough to chalk it up to a few different factors. I think that working with friends is fun. You know? It is very funny until something bad happens. Or until you start making too much money and then it gets a little dicey. That's true. the eagles or something exactly exactly as long as you're only making podcast money we'll be just fine chris when we come when our album finally comes out we hit number one then it's gonna fall apart then we're fucked man then we're fucked so are you so during this quarantine are you supposed to be working on something or are you just pushing yourself to work on things because of the time um i'm i have stuff i can work on thankfully i have like writing jobs

What are you, are you writing film and TV and theater or are you writing like, like, you know, regular stuff? Um, I'm writing, I'm doing rewrites, um, on a movie that I, uh, that I was hired to write and I'm working on a first draft of a book that's due later this year. So those are like, I kind of go between the two. Okay, I would say those are pretty real things to be working on. You know, I have to write some tweets every single day, which keeps me, you know, depending on how my output, it keeps me pretty busy. And other people are curious how to stay fit during a quarantine. So there's pieces that need to be written about that as well. Yes, that's my beat, actually, during this difficult time. And there's also different lists from this thing called Netflix, where there's different shows that you should watch. And he has to write that. stuff as well first of all i've not i've not stooped that low on my content i just want you to know that um we're so hired to write a movie was this based on your idea or was it an existing idea and you were writing the script um uh like kind of both cool um i don't know i mean to be clear i'm like very behind on both of them um so it's not Like, I was like, oh, wow. I, you know, silver lining, I guess. Like, now I have all this time to really focus on these things. And it is like, you know, I'm just glad I have, like, work. But I, you know. Well, what have you been doing to distract yourself from doing this actual work? Yeah, that's the real question then. Okay. Well, okay, two thoughts. Level with us. It's not really like you've been handed this expanse of time. It's not an artist residency. There's still a lot of just shit that has to get done every day. It's true. These kids ain't going to feed themselves. They're not. They're not. Exactly.

And I don't know what my other, I think I was just avoiding your question. Well, I mean, it's, I don't think, but like, are you waking up at noon and fucking smoking weed and watching Bravo? I don't really think you're doing that. No, no. Maybe like at night. There's more productive and intellectual ways to procrastinate from the work that needs to be done. Yeah. Oh, like I'm really good at like. creating work for myself like creating obligations and then resenting them and then like I think the first week I email of all this I emailed like everyone I knew um which was also out of the you know genuine desire to connect um but then I I don't know I think it's like I've I've noticed that I'm very good at, um, creating like tasks because they feel sort of more, um, actionable than like writing a book, which is very daunting. Yeah. Yeah. Cleaning the bathroom, easier to wrap your head around and you get, you get an instant hit of, of satisfaction. That's what I'm chasing every day is that fucking dopamine, baby. I'm looking for a hit. However I can achieve it in the fastest way. Come over and fold these socks, baby. I've said this before on this podcast, but I'm a master dish doer now. I'm incredible at sweeping. I've really taken sweeping under my wing and made it my bitch. Cleaning is important. Cleaning is important, but it can also be an anxiety crutch. But so can writing. I don't know. I mean, what? I don't find this time period to be particularly inspiring to do anything creative. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think like, to me, I need to be out in the world, you know, with people to feel anything really. So sitting inside with, with unlimited time, you know, is not particularly inspiring to me. And I feel like a lot of people probably feel that way. You're going to have to adapt.

Or die, bro. I mean. Adapt or die, bro. I mean, I don't think that like, we're going to be back outside in the relatively near future. Tell me more, Trump. I mean. Look, I took a bath with bleach this morning. I'm feeling good. Just a little cap full and I'm feeling pretty clean and healthy. Tremendous. What is, Tabby, what is this book about? If you don't mind me asking. Sure. It's about, you know, my life and the internet and theater and I guess kind of using different experiences I've had in these different, like, in media and fashion and, like, live. performance, et cetera, to kind of answer questions that I have about identity and authenticity. Okay. So, so, so like a little like essays, but, but yeah. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. I love an essay collection. I find that very easy to digest. Yeah. It's an easier to write probably a lot. it's well i don't know like i mean that is what it is right now but i have found like finding the right structure for it has been really hard and also now something is happening where like if i start reading another book like by the first page i'm like i'm just like shut up like i feel like i'm so aware of my own um like the the pitfalls for me in what i'm writing like the possible like the ways that it could go wrong or i feel so aware of when i am like maybe kind of bullshitting and then when i read something else i feel like the first thing i detect is like them trying to trying too hard to like entertain or sound smart or sound wordy and um i think i need to that's a tough thing to overcome i don't know

That is a tough thing to overcome. So you're telling me it's difficult for you to enjoy a book right now just as a reader? Yeah, everything feels very written. I know what you mean, though. I think sometimes it's like, do you really need to go into extreme poetic detail on every little thing? That bothers me, but it makes me also feel like, wait, am I stupid and I don't get that this is important? Or is this just completely like... a circle jerk for the writer. I don't know. Yeah. Like, and the only reason why it would bother me that much is only because I'm, I guess I have so many fears about like, you know, doing things I don't like in my own writing. Cause I don't know why else it would like offend me so much to like, I don't know. read, like, start a Brad Easton Ellis book and be like, oh, you think you're so slick. Like, your sentences are so short. You know Brad Easton Ellis' fucking short sentences. What a dick. His economy of words. It's fucking bullshit. I mean, I do think that, though, I mean, do you set... like parameters for yourself every day? Like I'm going to do X, Y, Z today. And like, I have that time blocked off or are you going with the flow? Um, it's kind of like, uh, every day is like one, one of the two writing projects. Um, and plus like, you know, uh, like emails, housekeeping nonsense. Um, but it is pretty, at this point. I had a feeling. It's pretty structuralist on this side too. Jason, I know your ass doesn't have any structure. Speak for yourself. I'm running a pretty tight ship over here, buddy. You and KK share an Excel file of what to do every day, every hour. It's more of like this is the time. I have to do these five things and then I can start smoking pot. That's sort of the parameters of where I'm at.

that's kind of all you need. I think my daily list has gotten progressively shorter as this has gone on. Um, just my expectations for myself, but, um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, like I have an office that I now can't, that I share with a friend downtown that I now can't use. And like the whole point of getting that was so I wouldn't. I would like have a place to feel like I was going to work to write. Um, and obviously that's out the window, but whatever. Well, you, I mean, you are probably somebody who values their alone time. And now you say that, um, am I wrong? No, you're right. Okay. I mean, because almost, I don't know, like, I'm that same way and I feel like I can detect that in other people as well. Are you a Virgo? I'm a Taurus. Okay, I don't know what that means, but we have a lot of Virgos on this show and Jason and I are both Virgos, so we relate to our kind. I was more so asking because I'm fascinated by how people are sort of coping with that or dealing with that or adjusting their lives to a non-alone lifestyle. Yeah, I mean, I guess we're adaptable. I actually, well, that does remind me that one time I did a play and one of my friends who was in it came off stage and was like, a lot of Virgos out there. I have no idea what she meant. That's the most theater thing I've ever heard. Nobody knows what it means, but it makes perfect sense. I think it's just a her thing. I really love the thespian community now. One thing about a Virgo, we'll clap, but you got to earn it. We're not going to clap for just nothing. Yeah, we don't give it away just because we paid $300 to see this little play or whatever. That actually makes sense then to describe an audience that way. Yeah, it totally does. It totally does. Are you able to get exercise in? No, no. Don't be ridiculous, Chris.

I'm just not good at taking care of myself in every way. I don't know. It's okay. I think it's just these kind of things are glaring right now because of the situation we're in. I'm not good at taking care of myself either. I can't cook. All I can do is shower and exercise. Those are the only two things I'm capable of. Yeah. I think... celebrate your strengths. That's what I try to do. That's why I haven't learned any new skills since I was 21. I don't know how that's going. You guys probably both have partners who help round out those edges where you are bad at taking care of yourself at. Or maybe not. That's true. We're kind of sloppy in the same ways and both bad at cooking. This has been a bit of a, uh, a challenge, but it's good to have somebody in, you know, as your partner who is kind of sloppy in the same ways though. Well, I am also finding myself like, like yesterday I spilled a glass of water on the kitchen counter and had to take everything off and dry it. And like, as I was doing, it was just like, list rattled off a list of like i was like when you get out of the shower you drip water everywhere oh yes yes yes just the nonsense um we're also at this point like all of this has become so routine that like i can get mad in that way but it's immediately clear that like i'm lying to myself and um sometimes you just have to get it out though to see that yeah It's not rational. It's just like finding targets for the stress. That's what Bay is for. That's what Bay is for, or I usually take it out on Twitter reply guys. Well, there's been an extreme influx of reply guys during the quarantine.

I mean, I think reply guys for men and reply guys for women are different because reply guys for women, I think they're like, think they're flirting even though they're not. For me, it's like fellow white guys who think they're on my level and can spar with me, but they don't want the smoke. So, so they, they think that they can be like, try to tell me something. And then I look at their profile. I'm like, bro, you have 40 followers. You live in Tulsa. Like, I don't even, I can't, I can't talk to you, but they haven't, they haven't earned their stripes going after Tulsa. No, I have no issue with Oklahoma as a state. I've actually been there and I like it. Um, this is the record, but the reply, the reply guys are out in full force. Like I tweeted a picture of, um, Noel Gallagher playing with Oasis in [redacted address] shows. There's like 125,000 people there. He's got a beautiful Union Jack Les Paul. You know, I mean, what is a more iconic photo than that? And some fucking dork is in my mentions being like, Suede and Blur are better than Oasis. Bro, first of all, nobody listens to Suede. Relax. Nobody listens this way. Britpop problems. Britpop problems. And then I look the guy up and I'm like, why am I talking to this guy? Chris, go to sleep. You do not need to argue with this nerd. You know what? My friend once had that where he was on the IMD message board. He's an actor. Now you can guess who he is. he was like looking at stuff people were saying about him on the IMDB message boards. And one guy was like really brutal. And then he went to this, you know, anonymous person's account to see what he had posted on other, you know, boards. And on the message board for Seinfeld, he wrote, he wrote,

Did we ever learn if Newman went to college? And then we were like, oh, this guy is, oh, this is not my problem. The internet is just fucking crazy. It's crazy out here. And I don't, I, Twitter, I just love so much to interact, but I don't read, like, I have a column on The Strategist, the New York Magazine thing, and I get absolutely destroyed in there every week. And I don't, I, somebody pointed out to me and I looked once. I was like, you know what? I'm not, you know, I'm not going to read this anymore. I'm going to, I don't know. I'm sure you've had to learn to avoid the comment section. Um, I, yeah, it's weird because like on one hand you want to be aware of what like the haters are saying. Well, you want to lay of the land. Like, I don't want to say something that's, I don't want to not know if I'm being like, totally tone deaf or something but um it's also its own bubble in a way like it's not necessarily making me more um like better at writing or more able to like communicate with say like the imagined reader of my book to know what like this twitter bubble is saying does that make sense no yeah 100 it's not like uh it's not like a comedian like going back and listening to their set and figuring out where they could fix it and things like that right i mean i'm definitely like i've been just dealing with that since i was like since i was so young so there is a part of me that is like it Like if I see something that's very cutting and I feel like misunderstood or judged or something like it, there's a part of it that makes me feel like a 12 year old. And then there's also a part of it that's like, I've been dealing with this since I was 12. So this is nothing.

um i forgot i forgot yeah i mean you've been fucking with this game for a long time i i don't i mean i can't even imagine but it was pre it was i mean i guess comment sections are comment sections but i feel like it's gotten more extreme with with twitter and instagram you know what i mean i think so because i think like it it's like you don't have to make as much of an effort to weigh in or to have an opinion than if you're like I don't know, like with Rookie, there wasn't really a lot of hate because I think the people who were going to it to read it were like, it's easier. I think like Twitter and Instagram make it easier to kind of like lightly engage with something and then have an opinion. Well, it seems to me like Rookie had just a really insane dedicated fan base and that's the only people who were going there. It wasn't, you're right. It's not like a... You're going there and you know what you're getting. It's not like you're flipping through Twitter and see something that interests you. Right, right. Well, it's also like the problem with hype or like just the way things can travel online is that something reaches people who are not its intended audience, but because it's being talked about, they feel like they are supposed to like it and they don't or they feel the need to weigh in. but like some things are just not meant to have more than like 3000 readers or whatever. Like, yes. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's how I feel when people are talking about sports, you know, I feel the need to weigh in because I can't stop hearing about it, but I'm not. Yes. Right. What are your thoughts on Bill Simmons? I saw a very funny onion headline about his book. Did you guys see that? It was like a fake book. It was an onion thing making fun of Bill Simmons. Writing a book about how he's... I don't know. Check out theonion.com. It's really good. I saw that he bought a $30 million house and they announced it during quarantine and then Variety took down the post.

What? Why'd they take it down? I think because he was probably like, yo, guys, this is in poor taste. Can you please, like, can somebody not? I think he's getting some heat. He was getting some heat from speaking negatively about Dennis Rodman. And also because he's from Boston, you know, they kind of lump him in as like white guy, racist sports person. But he was basically saying like, when did we ever think Dennis Rodman was an interesting person? And then like tweeted that the same day as the Michael Jordan documentary, which was like the Rodman episode. So everyone was super, super Rodman standing at that time and were pissed off at him for saying that. I don't think about, I find him annoying, but I also think he's good at what he does. If that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I think no, like Hamilton. Exactly, yeah. No one can rap about history better than him. I just think that it's like he has created this world around him that has become the world. He owns sports, basically. It's like ESPN is him, and ESPN birthed him. So I think that's interesting. My favorite Bill Simmons thing, though, is when he had that HBO show for two episodes. Ben Affleck came on and was so high on pills that he couldn't put a sentence together. That was the coolest Bill Simmons moment that I've seen. I've never seen that. Wow. Oh, it is legendary. I say this as a person who was addicted to pills. I am 100% sure he was on pills. Because people are like, oh, he's a little drunk. I'm like, that motherfucker is not drunk. It's like 8 a.m. What kind of pills do you think Affleck is taking? Affleck was definitely gone off a handful of perkies. Definitely some perkies. Definitely Vicodin or Percocet, maybe a little Xanny mix in from the night before. But that was great. It was amazing. That show got canceled. It was so fast. It got canceled very, very fast. Yeah. But I think guys like that are so big that everyone wants a piece of them and they try everything and some of it just isn't going to work. He's not a TV guy. Being on TV and being on the radio or a podcast or whatever are two very different things.

Right. Yeah, he's like a three podcasts kind of guy. Exactly. But he has like sports talk radio energy. Right. Three podcasts a day. Yeah, but TV energy requires more star power. Right, right. And you can't really look like a thumb as much as he does to make it in television as well. That motherfucker looks like my big toe without getting paid here for the last two months. I think one thing that people like about him is he's sort of not afraid to say things that will offend other people or, you know, like some spicier hot takes. And I think people are kind of drawn to that, especially in the sports world where everyone's very diplomatic and tiptoes around their opinions and he'll just kind of come out and say it. And I think that's pretty cool. More people need to be doing that, in my opinion, just to keep the kind of free speech flag waving. Jason's a big fan of podcaster Joe Rogan, if you couldn't tell. Fuck you. I'm a big fan of, have you heard of Louis C.K.? He kind of does that as well. I'm really into him right now. Jason's a libertarian from Orange County, so his opinions don't necessarily align with mine. And we have a voice, too. Thank you. You do have a voice, too. I'm sorry. It's your time. I've been watching... I watched Normal People last night. Have you guys seen that? No. I've seen people tweeting about it. I don't know anything about it. It's... I mean, I... Is it on failing Hulu? It's on failing Hulu. Oh, no. Oh, no. But it's a BBC. I mean, it's a full-on BBC television show, but in America, it's on Hulu. Full-on. I actually think it's pretty good. Like... It's a little sexier than I thought it was going to be. They fuck it? They fuck it. Yeah, they definitely fuck it. But I didn't like the book. I liked her other book much more. But I think this one's easier to make into a classic teenage love story television show. Right. Well, didn't she write the show? I believe she did write the show, yes.

Unfortunate part is there's a huge, big, dramatic music cue in the first episode, and it's an Imogen Heap song. Is it Mmm Whatcha Say? It really threw me off. Is there another Imogen Heap song? I don't think there is. But then they end the show with Elliot Smith, and I'm like, damn, what the fuck? How am I supposed to feel? What is the deal? Go ahead. Does it take place like now or like 15 years ago or whenever the book takes place? I think it's, damn, I think it's like older. They don't have cell phones or anything showing. So I would imagine that means it's a little older. But I actually didn't think about that, which is bad of me as a viewer. I should have been more attuned. I feel like that means the show is – I feel like that says something good about the show if, like, you're not thinking about, like – True. I feel so aware of that watching stuff now of, like, if it reflects the technology of the time or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I think that is a very – I mean, it's definitely a big signifier of what's going on. But I think that on a show about, like, high school relationships, there definitely would have been phones everywhere if it was current day. Right. You know, but I – 2005 nostalgia which is to be fair that's me and jason's both our prime times so maybe i'm feeling a little but i equated today we both had very nice blackberries at that time i had oh my god top of the line top of the line i'm gonna start crying um but i talked about it in my in a newsletter today a little bit because it reminded me have you ever seen the show undressed tabby no Jason, do you remember that shows on MTV? Okay. So it was an MTV, like late nineties, early aughts. It came on at like 11 o'clock and it was like, um, it was just this weird series that was written by this British guy. And it was like all about sex and young people, but like really boundary pushing, like, you know, like all different sexual orientations, all different, like tackling all these crazy issues and talking about all this stuff. And it launched the career, like a lot of people that are famous now were on it.

um, then obviously it's unknowns. Um, and it just, it kind of, they tried to reboot it and obviously it didn't work. Cause like people just look at porn all the time now. Um, but it was like a really, it's a really cool and interesting like time capsule. Um, and it, and this reminded me of, of normal people reminds me of that combined with like the OC or something a little more like palatable. Um, say less. Yeah, exactly. Cause the sex, the sex scenes are really like, like hot and heavy in the way undressed would be but the music cues and like how important that is reminds me of like an oc show and they used to put like the rooney's name on the chyron you know and the hills would do that as well they'd have like a very powerful music sting at the perfect time well i think because or mtv's i mean or hbo's girls as well yes when i was because i was in the music business at that time and it was when MTV wasn't playing as many videos, but getting your song on like the Hills or something. And then having your name on the screen was, was almost better at that point. Whoa. Like it was a big deal. And we had, cause cartel was signed to Epic and they like, one of the girls from the Hills fake interned at Epic. And so one episode they like talked about cartel and showed the album like in the office. Wait, that was fake. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. I know. It's crazy. I know. That time Audrina gave you her number at Hyde, that was real. What? Sorry, we're talking about a show that came out before you were born. It was on MTV. I remember The Hill. I know, I know. I'm just kidding. Very young. True. But do you revisit that stuff? It's like all that art stuff that's now cool again or coming back because you missed it? Do you care? Or is that like a different era to you? Well, it's sort of like, you know, how... Um, like teenagers didn't really read 17, but like 12 year olds did. Yes. Like there's stuff from that time that even if like the Hills that my friends and I were probably too young for, but watching. Um, so some of it is not, some of it is like, uh, uh, I remember it.

from the first time around. Um, but I don't know. I'm trying to think what else falls under this, uh, this category. I mean, I guess just because to me, the, the, the mid aughts was kind of my prime time. I romanticize the nineties. Like that's all I care about. Like music, magazines, movie, like all that shit is what I think is the absolute coolest. So. I just don't. He's a 90s bitch. I'm a 90s bitch. Oh, wait, exactly. But even, I mean, it goes way deeper than that. But I guess that's just me thinking the generation before me is cool, which is kind of classic, you know. Every person thinks that, I think. Yeah, I mean, starting rookie, it was like totally inspired by 90s, like sassy and riot girl and those things. Delia's catalogs. Of course, of course. What? Delia's catalogs. Yes. Did you find all of that stuff online? Or did somebody put you on? Other bloggers put me on. There were a few that I read of women who had maybe been teenagers then who I think maybe one of them wrote about finding all her old issues of sassy. And then I did some... I wrote about it on my blog and then some girl emailed me and was like, I bought like a year's worth of sassies on eBay. Do you want to do a trade? And like I made her a package of stuff and she sent me all these magazines. It was like kind of out of fashion blogging world. It really warms my heart actually to know that magazines were a part of that because that I feel like that's truly like would have been missed by someone your age at that stage. But you know what? I literally get a DM every other day that's like, I'm 18 or whatever, and I want to start a magazine. I think the desire to have something like that is kind of a constant, but I don't know how feasible it is now.

There's always going to be people who romanticize the same way people still buy vinyl, even though it's pointless, really. You know what I'm saying? You guys made Rookie into a print magazine for a little while, correct? Yeah, we put out a book, an annual print edition for four years. Did you publish that yourself? Were you working with a big publisher or was that yourself? The first two were withdrawn in Quarterly, like an independent publisher in Montreal that mostly does comics. And then we switched over to Penguin or to their like young adult imprint. But those sold really well. That was like a big thing, right? I don't know. I honestly don't know. Like I know that I like had to like, like I know that we published them and I know that. I went on book tours and like a lot of people came to our events and I know that like every now and then I get a statement about, of like royalties, but I, I don't have a good sense of like, I think they do a good job of not telling you all of that information for a reason. I mean, those books are also like, they're $30, they're 350 pages. Like in retrospect, if we wanted to make something that was more like every teenager should have this, it probably would have looked different and been cheaper. But I think for the like existing rookie readers, it was like a big deal. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you, do you miss, I mean, do you have any desire to write Mac? Like, do you want to do that anymore? Or does that feel like a different life to you? Um, uh, like to edit a website. Yeah. Yeah. To be in that zone again, where it's like a daily thing and you have that like output all the time. I don't miss that. No, I slog. Yeah. And it went on. I mean, it was just such a big part of my life. And I think part of why it was even like, it took me sort of a while to see that, like, ultimately I wanted to shutter it is because it was just.

such a regular part of my life that it was very hard to even realize like you could your days don't have to look like this you could like you know work on something that no one sees for many years or months or like um like I think actually like going back to it being very easy to kind of create tasks and to put off like sort of more mysterious creative work like um i think i got uh i was just so used to like managing people and like a lot of doing a lot of tasks and um it yeah i don't miss that you guys um you guys used to have a podcast as well right Yeah, we did. Do you miss that? I mean, I like interviewing people and I, I mean, I miss the sort of the feeling of like community and like the exchange. But these are not things that feel like off, like totally off the table now, you know? Yeah. I mean, have you felt? The pressure or the inspiration to fire up the podcast again, now that everyone else in the world is doing that? Not exactly, but for example, two former rookie contributors who are now, I guess, in their early 20s, when quarantine started, they created a website. called nearness project and it's like a lot of former rookie people and then other people and i hope you're getting a cut off that but anyway go on what i hope you're getting a little cut off they'll be hearing from our lawyers yeah yeah no um but uh like tim that made me really happy like that there's I don't know. I feel like the effect when something like that, that's a community, like the effects kind of keep multiplying and multiplying and like, yeah, you're seeing like it's over, over. Oh, that's interesting. Cause you're seeing the graduates of rookie do things that are cool and interesting. Yeah. And actually when rookie was still happening, that like, that was already starting just because people who had written for us or taken photos for us were like,

getting um you know bigger jobs and bigger opportunities and now that's something that I can just be I mean I hate to admit that that ever felt personal to me because it's not but like now that can just be something that's nice whereas while Rookie was like struggling to stay financially stable it was very despite my better judgment of being like, this is not about me and people should get bigger, better jobs, whatever. Like it was still, I was realizing basically the limits of being like a curator where you depend on other people, but like you can't own them and you don't want to own them. But it's just like, you don't have as much, you don't have that much like, It's not very stable. No, definitely not. No, I mean, I think that everyone on this call isn't that stable. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, you're probably doing a little better than me and TJ, but still the shit is like, you know, like the money comes in when the money comes in and sometimes it doesn't, you know, and that's just the struggle of the whole thing. And I think that like. that's the hardest part about any of this stuff is that you have to make sure that the, the income is there to keep doing it. And I think that, did you ever take, did you guys take money for rookie or were you just, was it self finance? Um, well, when it started, it was with a, like we had a ad representative that bought it ads, but like at a certain point I was lending it money. Um, How were you making money? You were making money doing your own shit and then putting your own money back into it. Really from like, and this is weird because it's, I don't think of myself as like a model, but when I look back, I'm like, oh, you may not think of yourself as a model, but like most of my income has been from like, you know, being in a commercial or.

being in an ad campaign. Well, you were in that, those things you're in as tabby. You're not in it as like talent. Right, right, right. Yes, it's like my personal brand. It's called being an influencer, if you want a word for it. I've heard of that before. Yeah, it's a new thing that's happening. Seems cool. I mean, it seems pretty interesting. New format. But were you in like a Hewlett-Packard commercial or some shit? Like, were you in a Surface tablet? Yeah, you're like trying to figure out where it all came from. No, I'm just like, damn, what all did you do? Let's go through the list. I want to hear the resume, baby. Chris loves a commercial resume. I do. Okay, so I was in an IBM commercial. Sick. How old were you, though? 19. Okay. So, and you were like, guys, I would never use this shit computer, but cut me to check. Well, I was talking to the robot Watson. Oh my God. The same one that won Jeopardy? That Watson? Yeah. Okay. I'll Google that later. Continue. Wish I would have known that when this podcast started, but yeah, go ahead. You know, different like. Before I, like when I was a teenager, I was in like a Uniqlo ad or like a Cole Haan ad. And then when I turned 18, I could and was like living on my own. Then I was like, oh, I have surprise money. Oh, I see. Yes. Classic, classic child star stuff, you know. The Coogan account. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So you were doing all this stuff. Is the IBM the height of it, though, or is there a bigger? No, I think that was like the most I've been paid for. And for that, it was kind of like, hey, it's cool. I can use this IBM technology to make a blog and stuff and do all the work that you were doing. Is that sort of what it was? No, I'm telling you, I was talking to Watson. And I was just straight up. And I don't know. It was like they had different people.

like pretend to interview Watson, who wasn't even there, by the way. Watson wasn't doing it on camera? Thank God you have a theater background. Yeah, seriously. God, it's better than doing lines with your mom, I guess, you know? That's really crazy. I mean... But that's nice that you had the money. I mean, you know, it's like nice to have that money. It's nice to put that money into something you love. And it's cool that your parents didn't steal that money from you. That's the number. That's the coolest thing. That's the coolest thing for sure. I mean, now I'm like, oh, that's I don't know. There was a lot of when you do something that when you're that personally and then like emotionally and financially entrenched in something like Rookie, a lot of. like a lot of dysfunction came out of that personally. Like it was hard to manage, like it hard to make good decisions around it. Um, but so like it, it was, I don't know, like when all of it was over, I was, it sort of felt like coming out of. I don't know, come like just a crazy experience and being like, Oh, that was, I thought it was all very normal because it was happening to me, but it was actually like, really not crazy. Um, and I guess I'm like, okay, yeah. So I had all of this, like, I, I didn't have to like, I could support myself doing this other stuff or, or acting. And I would have felt really, Like I didn't take a salary from rookie because it would have felt like really, even though that should have been okay to do, it was like, it felt weird. Yeah. Like I will, I don't, well also I should say like people who have startups, like it can be really normal to defer your own, like paying yourself or to put your own money into it. Um, but then like,

In our case, you know, it like shuttered ultimately. So it was all very messy, but I don't wish anything had happened differently. Like I just didn't know better. Well, yeah, I mean, that's part of it. I think there's a learning curve, of course. If you've never done it before, you don't know. You're feeling up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it sounds like you're doing fine to me. I mean, you know. Yeah, I actually didn't mean to talk so explicitly about my finances on this podcast. We have that effect on our guests. That's a weird niche that we've discovered about this podcast. I don't know why. But I do think people, though, are fascinated by how... how you actually make money in the arts you know whatever that whatever that medium is because i mean i think i i know a lot because of who i surround myself with but like i don't know how much people with regular jobs fucking make you know you know what i mean like if i talk to a fucking banker and he's telling me how much he makes it'll blow my mind because there's like bonus structures and all this shit you know but but a regular person's like what's a residual right yes Right. What is a residual? So let's get into it. What is? You're right. But it is. It's good. You know, people don't know. And like, I think it seems like so crazy, you know? Yeah. I also, I don't know. Maybe this is like just the effect of Instagram too, where like, I just like with my friends at least, like I find it very. where also most people are like artists and like maybe cobbling together income from many different sources. And like, I just, I find it very, um, uh, like growing up talking about money is like very taboo or like rude or whatever, but well now I'm just, I like transparency or, and I think it,

Ultimately, like, I don't know, I guess in a way it is sort of important to me to be like, hey, Rookie was not a big money making venture because it sort of feels like disingenuous to like getting those DMs that are like, I want to start a literary magazine. You're like, don't do that. I'm really proud of you. I'm really proud of you. It's a great idea, but don't do it. Well, I just think it's like better to be, I don't know, transparent than like just like to act like everything's a success story when it's like actually appearing in ad campaigns because I'm like a young woman was a lot more profitable. You know what? I think you finally have become an adult. It's here. That cold cynicism has entered your bloodstream. Welcome. Thank you for giving us an exclusive on adulthood. It's really important for us to break news on this podcast. Oh, my God. Like what you were saying with Jeremy and theater, like, I don't know. Yeah. We all know that pursuing a career in the fine arts will usually not turn you into a very wealthy person, but sometimes that's just what your dream is and you have to do it regardless of financial success and we shouldn't shit on those people's dreams. Well, also, Jason, you can get rich, so let's not shit on those dreams either because I'm 37 and I'm still going for the crown. Okay, Chris, name your top 10 millionaire cellists. Okay, fair. Okay, okay. You're right. Wait, top 10 what? Millionaire cellists. That's different. I'm talking about Hollywood, baby. Keep it a tight 10. I know there's a lot to choose from. I'm not talking about the symphony orchestra, boy. I'm talking about Hollywood. Yeah, yeah. The success rate is usually pretty high, right? It's very high. Yeah, it's very high. Basically, you go out there, you go to get a pilot or whatever, and then you're famous. That's what I've heard. Yeah. Well, but at the same time, it is, like, insane to be able to, like, make a living doing a creative thing. But then it's also, yeah. That's what we're all chasing because that's the ultimate dream is.

being wealthy and financially stable, doing what you love, and creating something of your own. That's why so many people shoot for that instead of just saying, I'm going to go work at IBM. Sorry, Watson. No shots, Watson. No shots, Watson. Because it's a gamble. If you can pull it off, then you have that much of a better, cooler, interesting life than... most people, but the, the failure rate is extremely high and that's the risk that you take. Right. Yeah. I love, I love risk taking. That's why I've been riding these fake city bikes. Um, but I, I think that I do. I mean, I just don't, you didn't go to college, right? No. Cause you didn't have time. You were too busy getting that guap early. She didn't have time. No time for college. I mean, we're talking. You're talking to two other people who didn't go to college, and I just think that it was touch and go for a little while, at least for me and Jason. I think you had a pretty clear path, but I know my parents were like, this guy is fucking up bad. And it turned out okay. What did you do? Did you still leave home after high school? I dropped out of high school and went straight to the big city of Atlanta, Georgia, where I'm from. And just got it popping. Just worked retail and then ended up getting the music business. That's it. That's my story. But Jason, you went to college for a little bit, right? There was a couple months, yeah. Where? uh in orange county orange coast college voted hottest chicks by um by by hustler magazine at the time by jason no not by me i was it was the i was not you know at the time i was not into like the blonde surfer orange county chick aesthetic so it was not it was not pleasing to me but i could see how other guys might be into that

Uh-huh, uh-huh. But at the time, I was taking graphic design classes and things like that, trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And then I took a similar path to Chris and just was like, I'm just going to go work full-time at Anthropology and get this popping. Jason's also an L.A. nightlife legend, so he cut his teeth in the nightlife game. Wow. I know. His sleep schedule is very different than ours. So are you really missing the nightlife right now? I mean, I've been out of the nightlife game long enough to where I don't really miss it. I really, I do love, you know, still going out and hearing some music I love and getting lost in the night, as it were. But, you know, the chances of that happening and having it be a successful evening are just so low nowadays. You know, my barrier for fun, there's so many criteria that have to hit and it almost never happens. So I have, you know, so much more fun just having a dinner party at home with friends and just drinking some bomb natural wine and getting lit. And that's about it. Jason, that's the most wash shit I've ever heard come out of your mouth. Well, I mean, that's I would rather say something wash than be like. Yeah, I'm approaching 40 and I miss the fucking club. That's so much more worse. Don't remind me that Tao is closed, okay? I mean, I haven't been able to buy a bottle in months. Oh no, what's going to happen to Tao? It's an important question. A question on all of our minds. We will absolutely tackle on this podcast at a later date, I can guarantee you. That's kind of our beat. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think the Beach Club will do fine for now. Vegas will be able to survive this. I don't know if New York will. I don't know if New York will. Tavi? Oh, yes. No, go ahead. Well, I had a question. Unless you have to go. No. Let us pray. Okay, if you could.

the if everything were normal again outside and you could go do anything tonight what would it be oh i i would literally just go to my friend dan's house and just sit on his couch and and like bullshit and do nothing that's that's sort of like the thing i miss the most damn to hear you're so down to earth just be That's sad, bro. It's what it's all about, couches. No, but everything else that I enjoy, I can pretty much, I'm already doing. All the stuff that I like doing, I just do it right now. I don't need to really see anyone. I like being alone. I talk to people I know more than I want to now. People I know. Notice he didn't say friends. He said people I know. Big diff, isn't there? I love to cook and ride my bike and walk around and exercise and do all. I love to podcast and whatever. All the shit I want to do, I'm doing now. But I don't get to just sit on my friend's couch and not say anything and just enjoy that kind of comfortably numb feeling. Yes. Right. Very, very lame answer. Fuck you. I love going to Whole Foods. I do that like twice a week. I'm still up in Whole Foods putting on numbers. That's true. That's true. I would probably hit Equinox for a pump, then maybe get a smoothie at Juice Press afterwards, and then go to Teterboro, get on a private plane, fly to LA. What would I do in LA? I guess maybe we could go to Mr. Chow Beverly Hills for dinner. Of all the places, Christmas is Teterboro the most, probably. Well, it's a home away from home. They know me there. They know me there. They show love. When Big CB comes to the door, they show love. What's the first thing that you guys are going to do when you get to come back to LA, the cooler city?

what a real laugh that you just did i'm gonna play tennis for sure i do miss tennis though really i guess i would see yeah i would see my friends who are there and go for the the numb feeling you were talking about but what restaurants what new york restaurants do you miss tevi You can say sweet green. It's okay. This is a safe space. Um, uh, it's so sad. Well, we've, let's see. Um, this is not a restaurant, but we've done a couple Zabar's trips and that's felt good. Well, must be nice. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I have a Zabar's spoon at my house. Never even been there. Go on. I miss like a Mogador moment. Damn, I live. So Mogador is like two blocks away. I really miss it. Wow. Oh, you're right there. I'm an East Village daddy. Yeah, it's just right around the corner. I go all the time. Yeah, last night we tried to imitate my. my dish that I like there and it was not the same. Which dish? Halloumi and shrimp. So we're not going to get the Tavi harissa recipe this week? Okay, well. It's so sad. If I was posting pictures of like the food I'm making, I would get, I would never work again. Blocked and reported. Yeah. God, I miss, like... It's okay. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but Mogador's a really good one. I miss Flora. I miss Balthazar. Oh, yeah. You know, I just... What do you got, Jin? Jin Ramen is, like... Oh, yes. Over, like, West Harlem? Yeah. Isn't it crazy that about half of these restaurants are never going to open again? That's not true. It's kind of true. I know, it's kind of true. Russ and Daughters. Yeah. At the Jewish Museum, which I can walk to. I didn't know they had a Jewish Museum special edition Russ and Daughters.

Oh my gosh, yes. In the basement of the Jewish Museum? Are you kidding me? Tavi, I have to level with you. I'm the whitest southern man on earth. So, you know, sometimes Jewish food can be challenging for me. But Russ and Daughters, obviously, I enjoy. I will admit, for me as well, like my order is very... I got chicken fingers. Do you guys have like a little pizza on the menu or anything? What's your Russ and Daughters order? And be honest. It's just a bagel with lox. Yeah. But I don't go for, you know, textured fish. Can I see your textured fish menu, please? What do you have in a sturgeon? Oh, Barney Greengrass? God, there were so many establishments. sorry i feel like you're losing steam getting sad thinking about this no i'm just like it's so weird because i was like when you asked i was like well now they're asking me i can't really think of anything because it's just been not part of our lives and now i'm like oh fuck but but who we don't know the future so we it's really true i mean it's really true i can't wait to be back in the big apple just walking the streets yeah It's going to happen for us. Don't worry. Keep your head up, okay? Yeah. 2022 is going to be awesome. We'll be back out there on the streets in no time. But until then, you guys both really need to learn how to start cooking and fast. Libertarian doomsday prepper Jason has a different outlook on the future than we do as New York City coastal elites. It's just different. It's just different. It's not wrong. It's just different. It is. It is different. I'm into like... Cool cooking things. I'm buying a lot of guns and you guys need to figure something out fast. You're right. You're right. We really do need to figure something fast. I'm getting worried. Uh, well, thanks for joining us. Uh, it was really fun to talk to you and I think that, um, you're going to be just fine, you know? Thanks. I think you are too. And, um, thanks for, uh,

making me comfortable enough that I said a bunch of stuff I think was stupid. Welcome to podcasting. Do you have anything coming out soon? Any articles or stories or pieces that people should look out for? No. Not at all. So 2022, when your book and your movie come out, we will both check those out. Yeah, keep an eye out. And you're on Instagram and Twitter. What's the handle? It's like a really old username, nickname. Don't make me say it, Chris. Don't make me say it. Is it? Oh, yeah, it is. Oh, yeah, it is. T-A-B-I-T-U-L-L-E. Damn, don't you know somebody at Instagram that can get you set up? I'm pretty sure I could just change it, but I've resigned myself. No, I think it's kind of cool. I think it's cooler to keep it. 1,000%. Yeah, we got to own it. I mean, Jason goes by them jeans, so you're doing better than him. A lot of people like that screen name. Thank you very much. I'll catch you in the chat room, bro. All right, Tappy, thank you again. Be safe. We'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.